Thank you for your reply. i do agree with you completely. Within us, we all possess our own universe. This universe is created by our own perceptions of experiences in the world. Its about intergrating this world and ourselves to explore and learn more about life.

I love this: When I travel the world, I see different aspects of myself. When I travel in my mind, I see different aspects of the world.

:)

Love Yajna

i am taken back by both of you. Beautifully, beautifully written. I find myself silenced for your expression of this understanding was simply incredible.
It is our determination to understand this mystery of life that fuels us to apply reason to ourselves, experiences, and the mechanisms of the universe.
When i was younger i was fascinated by the sequence of the universe (signs, how perfectly some events fitted etc.) and i naturally sorted to find out more. A few months ago, the guy in my life, decided in order to reach this stage of attainment- he had to renounce everything, himself, his dreams, it all, including me. In many ways he could have come to this conclusion as an escape, but nevertheless (thats a different issue), it left me in a situation where i didn’t want to find reason (that ends up transcending reason.) It was good for a short period, but i found that my need to use Reason, so that i find my truth, came from within me. And its something, that i can not abandon. No matter what i’m going through. So thats basically how i ended up here- hoping to learn. I’m constantly searching to find questions, and see lessons where i can find reason, so that the knowledge i attain will bring me closer to a universal truth. Its also important to experience the world so that you have more to reason with. Not only with yourself, but also with how the universe integrates us all. Thats why i have emphasised the importance of experience. To an extent reason and experience should be placed hand in hand, for it is so often that we find the best reasons, by personal experience through life.
And as for love. Its just that- Love. Nothing more, nothing less. Its the constant that guides us to find ourselves, and continues to live within us even after we’ve reached our destination. Love is eternal. We live, we die, we laugh, we cry, through it all, we love. Regardless.

lots of Love
Yajna

Agree with your thoughts. To elaborate:

Reason divides All until the synthesis is evident: the realization that the Many is the same as the One.

Love is perhaps the force field that we can sense between the poles of the divided bits.

And when the perfect opposites match, they unite to the origin that is even beyond zero.

I posted a response that you might not have read when you wrote your question to me (see the previous page).

Now and again, I think most people fall into the trap of criticizing others before oneself. I certainly know I do.

Like you (and many others on this forum), I interpret macrocosmos by exploring microcosmos, but also the other way around.

I try to bring my idea of these two planes together, by travelling back and forth between them.

Hence, I do not think it is necessary to renounce anything. The way I see it other people, outside influences and events, only exist to me as interpreted by my perceptions. Everything starts with my own apparathus of interpreting universe.

When I travel the world, I see different aspects of myself. When I travel in my mind, I see different aspects of the world.

There is no part of the world that is not a part of each one of us. We might not like it, and perhaps that is why we react the way we do.

Love All.

right on friend ! I too have held the same stand won’t abandon reason till I can ‘see’ it’s limitations, press on !

just sharing a thought reason is a sword of analysis, logic, it’s work is to break things down and then we know better. love is encmompassing, it’s a synthesis. in life 2+2 is always more than 4, e.g. a flower – it is made up of it’s chemical constituents which can be analysed, but the flower is not just a combination of the consititeunts, when they are arranged in the way they are to make a flower, there is beauty, now that beauty cannot be found by any reason, by any logic, by any analysis.

reason is a double edged sword, it can cut both ways, but that integrety of not abandoning reason, till it truly appears futile, is essential for transcending reason ! i too feel.

aditya

I have a question for you, before you said that you were trying to reach this stage of attainment. How do you plan on doing so? Or how have you tried? Someone dear to me also believes in such, and the path is chosen is to renounce everything. I’m not sure how his planning on doing it, at trying forget everything, but i do have confidence that he will find is way. As i know him, i understand why his doing this the way he is, i just find myself wondering more about how to reach attainment. Because personally, i can not forget who i am, and i find experiencing myself is the most rewarding.

lots of love
Yajna

ps. Been thinking about what you said about being judgemental, and your right, but i didn’t mean to sound like that. It was unintentional.

I have just made a trip down to a farm were my family meets up. every time i go down there, my family always teach me something new about life, especially the older family members. they have experience. and one said to me before “the biggest fool in the world is the one that doesnt learn from his mistakes.”
and yes that is apparently true about the dalai lama.

I will not abandon Reason until I find it exhausted.

Just because life’s various interconnections seem complicated and impossible to trace, there is (in my view) no reason to give in.

The quest for equilibrium must start in my perceptions, giving rise to my emotions. Strong, beautiful or horrible emotions, threatening to tear me apart, or sending me to the highest of heavens! None of them I shall avoid; all must be experienced.

Each and everyone of them, I shall slay with my cold arguments of Reason. And of each one so slayed, I shall say that it was not true. Because lies are complex and can be thus divided. But truth is simple and only One.

I will keep at it, until all that I perceive has been divided as far as I am able. Until all appears contradictory. Until it becomes obvious that all arguments are arguments whithin a circle and the sword ultimately threatens to turn back on me.

Then, I shall willingly transcend Reason because it will have served me well, but the time will have come to use it for its final task.

And I will give myself to Love. Completely and irrevocably.

that u loved the elephant story and said so, has been one bright spot in the otehrwise very disstrous start to the day today. thanks. I don’t realy know whether I should speak at all, the more I speak the more trouble I invite for myself it seems !

aditya

I must agree with you. Of course we have to be cautious, and should carefully state what we want to say, as well as how we wish to say it. I understand were your coming from, i just don’t want to be cautious to the extent that i hold back on something i believe in. I know the manner in which you thinking due to your responses on enlightenment, and from personal experience, the more i started thinking about getting to that stage, the more i worried about what i did and said, in any manner. And honestly, it just confused me and i ended up holding alot back. By over thinking i took a step back instead of forward. As much as i am learning to understand, and do wish to reach there, i learnt that you have to be ready to do so. All in good time, and as i continue to learn until i am ready, i want to experience myself more. I’ve learnt most things this way, and by sharing with others. I think that i should give my opinion in whatever i feel strongly about, obviously using my discretion (must), as to how and what exactly i say. I guess i realised that whatever i say, will impact different people differently, but they do have their own minds, and if i challenge their thoughts than so be it. But if i don’t do anything, i find myself in a worse position, because its not who i am. Sometimes its good to say your heart when you have the opportunity, and go for making a difference, even though you know at the end of it all, whatever must happen will happen. They say that when you do reach a attainment, everything will make sense, everything you’ve done, everything in the world. Until i get there, i will continue to learn through life.

Aditya,

I loved your elephant story :)
i think AVC and i are both correct. And the balance between the two would be optimal. To be careful on what and how you say it, but at the same time be true to who you are, and say what you think and believe. In this world, we learn most from life, experience. When to correspond with others, learning from their experiences, remembering our own, we are experiences ourselves more, and learning more about ourselves.

Lots of love
Yajna

maybe to get better / more perspectives of the same things.

I 100 % agree with AVC when he says we should be cautious in such matter, we should be responsible,towards ourselves and towards others who care to allow.

since rebuke from AVC, i have been ….

what yagna says also makes sense, afterall i can offer only my opinion, even when I am quoting anyone, I am choosing to quote him / her.

for me the situation – another analogy Ha :-) -

we have all heard of the story where diffrent regelions are likenedd to blind men who are describing an elephant. everyone sticks to his / her point that elephant is like a pillar / a pipe / a this or that depending upon what they are touching ‘at that moment’. Now isntead of fighting if we just allow that each one’s expereince is as valid as the next one, they can all consider each other’s expereinces as being true, by correlating each otehrs’ expereinces they all will have a better idea about what the elephant is like. mind you the combined idea may still be far away from ‘truth’ but at least each will have a better idea.

so let’s share freely and responsibly.

aditya

It is not only possible to influence other people, it is inevitable. And since everything is interconnected, everything has endless consequences and you would agree that all such actions entails a great responsibility. That is why I am advocating some cautiousness in these matters.

The world and its inhabitants are truly remarkable. I may not be so optimistic when it comes to the benefits of teaching and so called masters, but I am very optimistic with regard to debates and discussions where people are listening just as much as speaking.

It is highly rewarding and can bring us to the very rim of reason. The last leap, we have to do on our own.

You can learn many things from different people. Some can teach you about love, others about fear, others on just about life. In any experience with anyone you will learn something. Even though there are people who are not enlightened, they may possess qualities that can teach you, and thus becoming masters in their own way, in what they believe. But with regard to the dalai lama, yes he is kind and loving, but he is specifically founded to be the dalai lama because he was born enlightened, in order to lead and teach people. It is believed that he gave up his state of nirvana, to be reborn in this world continuously to teach us to love, and to find our own way to enlightenment.

Yajna

you speak highly of enlightenment, and i also do believe that a state exists like that. There are different ways to attain it, one of which is truely experiencing yourself while it can also be attained through different types of disciplines. I understand exactly what your saying, and i know how your thinking with regard to the world today. Because when you do reach a state of enlightenment, you’l be able to see how everything fits together- past, present and future, good and bad. And if everything fits together properly- that means the world is perfect. As it is. All that actually matters is love. As an enlightened person, you could thus choose to teach others or not. But i’m honestly working on it, and the way in which i choose to find it is through self discovery, and experience. By me writing here, i’m expressing how i think and feel on various topics, and as i do so, i am experiencing myself and others. I am also constantly learning from myself and others, so even though i may sound judgemental at times, its merely my opinion on things and what i believe. Furthermore, i could be changing things by writing here. Someone can easily read something and find that they are Feelin the same way, and have more faith in themselves, and thus, will make better decisions for their life. Everything you do, everything you say, is interlinked in the world. If you analyse every single thing, trying to figure out what its impact will be, you’l go crazy. And if you sit and do nothing, you won’t experience yourself. The most you can do, if you have not reached a stage of attainment, is be true to who you are.

lots of love
Yajna

I think it is possible to reach a stage where you Will that which must happen.

I prefer this way of expressing it, rather than saying that there is a stage where everything happens in accordance with the Will.

In reality, it is the same thing. An endless chain, a circle or a spiral, of events with no end and no beginning.

Hence, I think it is possible to “tune in” to the chain of events, by using one’s entire understanding of the laws of nature (not only the conscious one) and thus “predict” if you will what is going to occur.

Since nature is very complex, chaotic, this is so difficult that evidence of detailed results are difficult to show. The effort itself seems quite often to momentarily block out subconscious levels of understanding.

However, the general direction in which events are going are far more easy to recognize as most people would agree. In fact, if we did not have this ability we would probably not survive for very long.

Here is where I believe science and spirituality will meet in the future. If we become less dogmatic, less judgmental, perhaps we will indeed “attain” some day.

if one beleives in god, then one has this understanding that everything happens for some good, even the bad, i understand that my capacities are not infinite, and certain things are mystry, we may live the mystry but may not understand everything, and that is OK, if it’s needed for me to unedrstand something, that understanding will come. I trust god and in her power to lead my life, that is why I can live day to day, moment to moment without getting stressed.
yep tom Dalai lama sure is oen such person who is kind & loving.

u dirty fellow, now I know what quoting out of context means, u ‘badmash’ it’s a hindi word for naughty and slightly …. anyway,

u know what I frenakly don’t know what is atttainment, and I also don’t know if it’s me who is drawning, but yes I have been able to retain my cheerfullness in most trying circumstances, not that i have attained or anything, well till I attain it how can i have an idea about it. I write, because as ZI write I myself become clearer ( or so i think )

I too enjoying reading your comments often. I think that the most one can possibly do in life is to be sincere in everything they do. Because life happens, and its not often that we always get what we want. When things don’t work out the way they should, we find it far more difficult to deal with if we had not been sincere in how we live our life. Being sincere and doing the most you can possibly do, allows you to live without regret even if things do not work out in your favour. Living without regret, is giant wings lifted off your shoulders.
Further more, it often does seem that your mind has an adgenda of its own, and the manner in which we think is often influenced by the outside environment. I think it is important for you to know what happening around you, but you should always mantain who you are and what you believe, and try your best to think the way you want to, not the way others do. As much your your mind does need disapline at times, it should be always be kept open to possiblities- because in any situation there is many, many perceptions.

Lots of love
Yajna

Just to add to what aditya said, i think you are an incredible individual. From what i’ve learnt about you, i find u to be wise as you are a person who has come along way in life. I’m glad that we are friends and i find that i have and will continue learn alot from you through your words :)

Thanks for your comment. I’ve very glad u brought that up, because it did make me think. I do realise that we seem somewhat judgemental and are constantly critising others here, but this is intended to be construstive criticism. There are many problems in the world, and we are merely here giving our opinion on to how to improve it. If people start to be aware of the fact that they can rekindle dying dreams, or teenagers become more confident that they can attain their dreams, people will strive to do something they love. As they do so, even though it may be hard, they will truely feel as though they achieved something, and they will be happier. I do realise that everyone has their own life, and i’m not here to say that someone didn’t try hard enough, or just gave up too easily. Every person is is living their own lives, has their own strengths and weaknesses. Us chatting here, is more of an encouragement for people to realise that their dreams can come true, and that someone else believes it.
The thing about Paulo’s books is that he writes things that we often feel, and because we find that someone believes in what we feel, we tend to have more reassurance in ourselves. Simply said, people can come and read our comments, if they disagree, then they disaree, but if they don’t, then they feel somewhat more hopeful. I know on many occassion i’ve felt like that.
Even though we ourselves may not have attained everything we’ve put out to do, and we may not know exactly who we are yet, we still come here to write everyday. Because by us writing here, we are not only experiencing each other, but we are experiencing ourselves, and in doing so are getting closer to attain who we are.

Lots of love,
Yajna

I think i realise what you are trying to get across, it is not that they do not go about there business without stress. they are just fighting for what they truly wish to obtain, and so do it with grace and dignity.

and does not paulo’s humble-ness prove that he is a good person. from at least this point of view, for who must be a master if they are just kind and loving to those fellow human beings who you see each day.
yes it is good to have understanding but it is not neccesary to have enlightenment. my example of one of these people would be Tenzin Gyatso or his official title, the dalai lama.

Please don’t get me wrong; I have no objections to your throwing people ropes if you believe that they are drowning! :-)

However, I feel that it is quite common among us spiritual searchers to become somewhat judgmental of other people’s lives at times. I quite often fall into that trap myself, even if I try not to.

All I am saying is that if there is such a thing as attainment, I envisage it as the ultimate Understanding where everything makes sense, even the things that seemed bad at a glance.

I know that this state exists. It is just so darn difficult to retain it!

Love to All. Love All.

Communication is funny business, what is intended, what gets written, what gets read and what gets understood, often are not the same. For normal humans like us, a little amount of stress seems to be an absolute prerequisite for any action, but if one looks at life of ‘enlightened’ masters like Zesus, Buddha, even not so distant past ones like Gurdjieff, Chinmayananda, Osho ( well these I have heard of, there must be others, Paulo refsuses to be called a master hence not including his name here ) what we can see is that although there lives were full of lot of activity, in fact most of these chaps overworked themselves to death; there was no stress in them.

But then such a situation, stress free yet active like hell, may be prerogative of enlightend masters; for mere mortals like us, just like good cholesterol and bad cholesterol, we have good stress which propels us to action and we have bad stress which kills. If my goals are mine, not just because of rat race, and if I am honest about it, I would automatically do my best to march towards my goals, there can be moments of rethink, restrategise etc etc. but stress may not be, I feel and I may not be exactly accurate.

Have u seen warriors, in the thick of action, but with a smile on their face, stress which takes away the joy from our soul is not desirable.

Vishes !

Fear ! We really need to get into depths of fear, all accumulation is because of fear. I am not yet clear on this really so….
But one thing I will like to share with you, these what if scenarios are what create fear. Have u noticed something, very rarely we fear the present, we always fear the what ifs of future. It’s better to spend some time in concrete actions like meditation. Zazen etc, rather than spending our precious time and energy on what if scenarios. Let’s not underestimate the power of meditation, it propels one towards all that is truly worth ‘dying’ for.

Yagna,

I keenly read your ‘inputs’ on this site. As u have said at the end of the day one should be happy with who they are. I don’t like the helpnessness of ‘has to be’, it should be one’s understanding and that happiness will come if one is living a sincere life, otherwise, if we know that we are being less than 100 % sincere, happiness will be a far cry.

Why people abandon their dreams – interesting, it’s mainly because we are unable to take failures gracefully, and there is a very curious interplay of our mind with the stream of the stimulus being received from environment, in a way our mind has a mind of its own, an agenda of its own. One needs to learn to discipline the mind.

AVC

U always make me ponder, as do most other warriors here. If I wait till I ‘attain’, what do I know what is attainment. If someone is needy and I can extend a helping hand, I better do it, whether to accept my help or not remains the other persons prerogative, no ! Suppose someone is drowning in a river and I don’t know swimming, I can at least look for a rope, a creeper, anything to throw towards that person. Of course we should not mind, if our advise is not accepted, or even outright rejected.

Sorry about this long post friends !

leaf
I read of your trauma, in the other section. It takes a warrior to overcome traumas ! u have. salute ! balance that u speak of, if achieved after exploring the extremes has some real value. The peace that follows a storm has its own depth.

I have a short and sweet saying for you that may help us all and can also define what we have just talked about:

“may god give me the strength to change the things that i can, give me the patients to endure the things i cannot, and the wisdom to tell the difference.

p.s.

evan almighty is very funny, it also teachs young people of god.

vishesh,

correct, there is fear in most circummstances, take for example, this new nuclear race. Iran is wanting nuclear weapons to defend itself from what ???? more nuclear weapons. sometimes i fear for our future.

by the way, on the subject of the conflict in Iran and Iraq. well it was how many years ago since they had announced that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. i will tell you why. i have a freind in the army, and they did actually find weapons of mass destruction. but guess what it said on them. “supplied by the united kingdom”
so they took the weapons of mass destruction and buried them. buried them with the truth. a conspiracy and no one knows but a handful of brave soldiers. and of course us now. this shows that something out weighs fear. that my freind, is greed, my country, britian, was willing to sell nuclear weapons to the opposition, for profit.

Therefore I must resist the temptation of asking you to stop criticizing the way other people live their lives since we know so little about them.

There, I did it! ;-)

I watched Evan almighty this weekend and i found the perfect way to encompass how exactly to change the world. “God” said.. In order to change the world, all you have to do is perform “Acts of Random Kindness.” I’ve always said that some of the littlest of gestures can change the world. I’ve glad that you are setting an example. Its easy for people to critise, but what are there doing to change it? Instead of constantly blaming, and moaning about issues, people should rather spend their energy working by example and helping solve the problems in the world- not agrevate them.

Tom and Aditya,

At the end of the day, one has to be happy with who they are. The whole point of life is to choose. Choose to walk left or right, or up or down, or even upside down. Both of you are right, Yes, each goal should be a personal choice you set, and it must be something you want. Many people have given up on even wanting anymore, that they just seem go on living for the sake of living. Any goal you keep in mind, whether it is great or small, will have its challenges, but if you truely want something, sooner or later you will achieve it. Further more, you shouldn’t base yourself on other people’s desires. It won’t make you happy at the end of it all, you could have missed out on the opportunity to make your own dreams comes true. It’s silly to be jealous of someone, you are who you are, and if you admire something from someone, then admire it. But don’t make it consume you, and don’t make it make you feel less than who you are. No one is perfect, no matter how perfect they seem.

Love Yajna

“if not being satisfied isn’t understanding,and being satisfied wrong?where is the thin line?”

In the world today, many people are living purely for the sake of living, in the sense that, they go to their job everyday, do the same thing, and be content not to aspire to what they really wanted, just because their lives are comfortable. Like the shepard boy at the beginning of his story. He had enough, it was his stable job and he would survive a confortable life, but would he be truely happy? So many people give up on what they want, their dreams, because life forces them into certain situtions; but the moment that they become satisfied simply living a “normal” life, and give up on their dreams, is what makes that satisfaction wrong. However, when one is not satisfied living a “normal” life, they are put in challenging situations, (the irony of life) and they start to question the universe, and why things are happens they way they do. People forgot that nothing life that is worth somethings is just easy, there will always be obstacles. I believe that even though, times can be very though, you should believe in yourelf and in what you love, and never forget to aspire towards it, even if you have to put on hold for a period of time.

As you said, there is a balance in everything. It’s the core opposites in the world that can not exist without each other. Think about it, without sorrow, how can you possibly know what joy is? Without choice, how can you say you’re living?
You seem to tormented by rationality (mind) and what your heart tells you to do. Personally, I think the key is to balance it, find out what you love, and use your mind to go for it. But as Leaf said, both do have their strengths and weaknesses, and only you- yourself can find a personal balance. Listen and trust whats inside of you, and do what you love- even if its crazy!
Yes, it is possible to make mistakes, but are they really mistakes? At times we feel as though we’ve made huge mistakes, and we feel its all our fault, and we torture ourselves. If you seriously reconsider something, you can always try to make it right again. I think that if you know in your heart, that you did the best you could possibly could do, and that you sincerely tried, it will help lift the weight of your shoulders. Always remember that nothing is as bad as it seems at times of fear and pain. Time often tells that some of our greatest “mistakes” in life, turn out to be a blessing.

Take Care
Yajna

this is what i feel about “Desiring something just because others want it is called rat race & satisfied or unsatisfied rat race is going to make one into a rat only.”

What goes in the human mind when one is left with the want of something which someone else has?IS it mere jealousy?i doubt it,there is an element of fear…what if that something has something which can destroy me?what if because of that i may loose something?what if because of that…..

It is here that a few celebrate their successes while others live in the shadow….the shadow because the one who has won will also be in fear of them….It is here that goals become important…what you desire?how do you work towards it? In the process of working you may find that it isn’t what you needed and since you are doing it for yourself,you know you have what you wanted…but is there no stress….there always….you know you are to be doing something….