In my book, The Devil & Miss Prym a foreigner arrives in a village to tempt a woman. I wanted to explore the fight of good and evil and would like to ask you:
Do you think man is intrinsically bad ?
Love,
Paulo
Experimental Witch
ENGLISH PORTUGUÊS DEUTSCH
FRANÇAIS ESPAÑOL POLSKI
Warrior of the Light
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No I do not think as man as intrinsically bad ,it can be as simple as a head on collision between desire and duty, like the story in The Bridges of Madison County,where say a foreigner came to this village for a ill fated love affair ,not passion but of a betrayal to the authentic self that leaves us lonely and vulnerable and aching for something more other than a life emprisoment ,to our daily life and duties as some put it , but it can be as simple as a diversion of a foreigner passing through the village…Get the movie out, you will understand what i am saying ..Its worth a look at I think Meryl Streep is in it and Robert Redford.. Blessings Tania..
No ! that person is expereimenting with good and bad ! but I would rather have such initiative & resources being utilised for more meaningful purpose !!
when a child is born he comes with a fresh soul with no past or future in it. As he grows up situations surrounding him develops him for better or worse. I don’t think a man can be intrinsically bad. In that case there won’t be any requirement for evil/satan to lure humans.
All our actions are relative and the acceptance by other’s depend on social learnings. what do you define as “bad” can be a normal gesture for other communities..for other ages..
Deep down everyone is good. A murderer’s son will not be a murderer unless he is exposed to situations like that.
No, I think man in intrinsically good. I have no proof or even a very good argument to back up this belief, just blind faith. :-)
Intrinsically Bad? No! Never!
I did not read ur above book but man can never be intrinsically bad!
I did not know the meaning of “intrinsic”. From the web i found the meaning to be “Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent”.
So if the question is “does man inherit badness or naturally can a man be bad”, Then the answer for me is NO.
Man always behaves on an impulse and his present state of mind. So the permutations and combinations of the impulses and the states of mind are infinite.
A bad(mad) man in a good state of mind can do good things.And vice versa.
A person always does both good and bad things in their life.
No person could ever do only good things or only bad things through out their life.
I don’t believe anyone on of us is bad or evil. Our actions can be.
Part of our soul’s plan is to make mistakes to learn from them… perhaps as we reincarnate time after a time we no longer need to make mistakes quite as evil or bad as in the beginning.
Just like we as kids tip over a table insisting afterwards we had nothing to do with it… and as adults we take full responsibility and help fix what we broke.
Reacting to evil/bad is much harder than knowing what it is.
No. Our “roots” are all from the same substance. But we were given freedom of choice. I see many people as wanting the freedom, but not wanting the responsibility of the freedom’s results….people are all aware of this but choose to live in denial, and rather blame on an external evil force such as the devil, this they think, keeps them good and honest. I believe, instead, that it keeps them victims of their own choosing. If we were all really big enough, we’d be able to acknowledge that we have been made in the image of our maker, wih the capacity for light and dark - everyhting in life is made up of polaric forces - its nature’s balancing act. When we can embrace this as being part of our make-up, then I think we can understand the truth of who we are - that we are our own creator’s of our self, and our lives, and that good and evil exists because of our own doing, and perhaps it is okay that way. Do we not need to venture through the dark in order to recognise the light?
I believe we are in a perpetual state of searching because of not wanting to face the reality of our “badness”, this would possibly cast us out of the hearts of fellow man and make us unacceptable to society….so are we intriniscally bad? No, we are scared, just scared of facing ourselves, our truth, that we are fully responsible for the way we are, the thoughts we have, and the manner in which our lives unfold. What if the force from whcih we stem’s only responsibility was to set us forth into the realm of human existence, and no more than that? It would be much like the bird casting its chick out of the nest? What if we have to fend for ourselves? Can we handle that reality? It doesn’t look like it, at least not for the majortiy of people…it would mean growing up and acknowledging that we do harbour the same creative powers as our maker, and that, yes, we are in control of our destinies 9much of what a parent tries to teach a child - that they can walk with them along their path only so far, and then the child has to make it on their own). No, we are not intrinsically bad, we’re just terribly immature and not yet wanting to leave the puberty stage of the soul.
We LEARN evil, and bad behaviour, (mostly through the media of tv these days.)
Then it tempts us to cut corners or consequences in life, and it cuts people’s emotions too.
We are creative and we imagine or invent other bad ways to get what we want in life, based on what we have learned.
When we learn the benefit to our own hearts of being ‘good’ - behaving respectfully, with a clear conscience then we live in harmony with ourselves and others. When we learn this at a young age, I believe our mothers won’t have to excuse our behaviour or actions, as we will know, and we will have more peace within our selves.
and I liked the idea of the fruit being the children - what a judgment, - we have no excuse for not bringing our children up correctly, OUR own sense of correct, that is, and what excuse can we give for failing, or saying that they failed us?? Hmm, pretty scary, potentially.
LOVE
hey ! reincarnation looks like a commonly held belief, but christanity does not advocate it, am i right ! sorry about asking a question which does not seem related to man and his actions being good or evil, but there is a connection !
aditya
I don’t believe that there is such a thing, as intrinsicly bad.
He might have convinced himself, that there is no such thing as good in him, or he might have the devil with him, in what ever way that might be.
I believe there is evil in people, just as much as there is good..
its up to us to decide which path we want to follow.
Dear Paulo
and friends,
Is the man intrinsically bad?
OF COURSE NOT!!
I think that THE MAN is intrinsically GOOD.
If we come from the conclusion that EVERYTHING THAT COMES FROM GOD IS GOOD than the man must be GOOD.
How can it be other wise?
I think that every man is good inside!!!
I think that BECAUSE OF the temptations of the world,
situations that happen along the way
and of course
THE FAITH THAT MAN CAN HAVE… OR NOT!
that this CAN LET THE MAN BEHAVE BADLY.
That certainly DO NOT MEAN THAT THE MAN IS BAD!
IF GOD IS LOVE and THE MAN COMES FROM GOD than THE MAN IS LOVE TOO and therefore IS GOOD!!
I think that everybody wander sometimes. Goes wrong way.
THAT’S LIFE!
and it’s nothing wrong with that,
we become better afterwards.
I also think that BY SEEING BAD, EXPERIENCING BAD,
WE CAN APPRECIATE GOOD MORE !!
WE CAN APPRECIATE GOD MORE!!!
ALSO if we look real close, if we look deep inside somebody’s heart and soul -
we will be always able to see the GOOD!
SO - TRY HARDER!!!
TRY TO SEE WITH LOVE!!!
and IT’LL SHOW!!!
love
Agnieszka
Aditya
on the whole, Christianity does not believe in reincarnation, but on the contrary, I (Christian) believe that it IS in the bible as an acceptable concept.
there are places i could cite, but am going out in a mo…John baptist thought of as Elijah having come back - as one.
xxxx
Is there day or night?
Is there summer or spring?
Nothing is neither good nor bad.
Everything is both good and bad.
I think the suffering that humans have caused isn’t intrinsic, but human development through generational behaviour. If a few generations would pursue their spiritual path than humanity may start changing. This is hypothetical though.
That depends on ones definition of bad. Do you mean bad as in evil? or as in good and bad? or yin or yang?
I believe the world that we live in…the illusion is both good and bad and so are we.
So my response is yes we are both, and more importantly we have access to both. In ones search for the truth or in the process of fighting the good fight we must access both. One may not choose to use both but the awareness and respect of both is reflected in all of the life around us and within us.
How one chooses to use that knowledge of both good and bad will expose the extent of ones wisdom.
In “The Pilgramage” Paulo is wise enough to access his inner good and bad to defeat the dog and what that dog means to him on his pilgramage.
The messanger is another example of a knowlege source that would not be called good. So what is the messanger Paulo if indeed the messanger is not good?…am I allowed to pose a question in this forum?
Do you mean bad as in good and bad and not evil? The world that we live in is both good and bad and so are we. Providing that we are both what is really important is that we have access to both. In ones search for the truth or in the process of fighting the good fight we must access both. One may not choose to use both but the awareness and respect of both is reflected in all of the life around us and within us.
How one chooses to use that knowledge of both good and bad will expose the extent of ones wisdom.
In “The Pilgramage” Paulo is wise enough to access his inner good and bad to defeat the dog and what the dog means to him on his pilgramage.
The messanger is another example of a knowledge source that would not be called good. So what is the messanger Paulo if indeed the messanger is not good?…am I allowed to pose a question in this forum? Peace :)
If you are asking the question, does that mean that you aren’t sure, or are you just interested in what you ‘readers’ think? I would be very disappointed to learn that you have any doubt. Be careful of the questions you ask - they could be interpreted as displaying your beliefs. Man (ie. human beings, not man as opposed to woman) is a manifestation of what is ie. God/Life/Truth/Love/Being - whatever name you wish to use for what is everything - trying to acknowledge/recognise what it is or is not. How can that ever be bad? If you believe that ‘man’ is bad, then you must believe that you are bad and that is just not true. You and I and every form of life is an image of Christ and how can that ever be described as bad, no matter how we may judge that image to be? It just is what it is.
What we ALL are is one and the same - there is no difference in the essence of what we are - there are many differences in the ways we perform in the world. None of us is in a position to judge another. At the end of the day, we are all looking for the answer to the question “Who am I?” and the answer is the same for all of us.
Is bad behaviour hereditary? My own experience prevails so - that it is hereditary. Some people cannot escape certain negative traits inherent in their family. But your question begs - are humans bad in general? Not all. But some are. There are positive people around us, and theirs were nurtured since the beginning of their generation. But same goes for bad seeds - there must be some deviant character in the family whose blood escaped one generation and surfaced on the other. Some people are lucky that they could break through from negative parents/home and came out a better person. For the rest of the society, we just have to be careful with how we nurtured our own children- the balance of being too strict, or too lenient is sacred. Back again to your question - is human intrinsically bad? Yes to some. And no to some. It’s too superficial to say neither or nor.
I think people are born good with the capacity for bad inbuilt but at the start have the protection of innocence, and being unaware. Then as they grow and they come into an awareness of bad, then that they have “choice”. They can choose to expose themselves to bad, activate the bad button lol hence weakening the walls of innocence.
“Good” or “bad” has nothing to do with it. Man is intrinsically NATURAL; i.e., it is the “nature” of humans to want, covet, desire - even to take, steal, lie, and kill - these are all “base” instincts - they do not have to be taught or learned- they’re as natural as hunger, fear and pain.
What we learn, hopefully, is that there is a higher level of consciousness that supersedes these base, natural urges; this self-centeredness that is our nature - an awareness and empathy for the needs of other people - and a respect for the concept of personal responsibility rather than mere self-preservation. You can call this “enlightenment” religion, or morality or spirituality - but, as the rest of the animal kingdom demonstrates - this is completely un-natural; the “law of the jungle” is natural law - and that law dictates that I take the meat for myself, no matter how hungry you are.
It is our success or failure, individually and collectively, at implementing these greater values; this social consciousness; in our lives that ultimately determines the quality of life; and is weighed as “good” or “bad”
Man is different as an individual. And man is very different as a group.
I believe, as an individual, the Man acts as per his justification of right versus wrong. He actions are always right and good. However they may not be right from someone else’s perspective. e.g. a freedom fighter for some, is a terrorist for the other.
A man in a group, is a different entity altogether. His actions are based on his perception of the group behavior, and how he fits in with the group. A group has no sense of right or wrong. Depending on a multitude of factors, the group behavior can shame mankind, even if none of the constituent individuals have any bad intention. I welcome you to read my posts relating to the group behavior.
1. The concept of groups - http://letstalkinsights.blogspot.com/2007/12/concept-of-groups.html
2. Group Character is Unique - http://letstalkinsights.blogspot.com/2007/12/group-character-is-unique.html
What is the human standard of “good”? And what is the God standard of “good”? Maybe, these are the questions that should be answered first before concluding that a man is intrinsically bad or good. Can we say that man is good because of his deeds? Jesus said “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God” (Mr 10:17 sic). With this statement, God might have a different standard of good compared to human standard. Just a thought…
When God created Adam from dust and by breathing life into Adam, and Eve from Adam’s ribs, they we’re not in any way been bad… it is then only when Eve was tempted by that ugly serpent that man was called a sinner. That until now human beings struggles to be good for the greater glory of God, but is sometimes tempted to do bad. Man is not in anyway intrinsically bad. The World is. God Bless us all.
I believe man can only be characterised intrinsically bad if he is also characterised intrinsically good. Every man struggles with good and bad in his life, and everything is matter of choice. That choice is the good one or the bad one. And a matter of control also. For instance, if an alcoholic person is out of control will only make the wrong choice, failing himself over and over again. The same corresponds to a thief. If he is in terrible need he won’t think for the wrong action he will make.They will think only the pain that will be eased in their heart and soul but only for that moment.Later, when the man puts himself together and understands all the wrong things he has done, and all the evil things he can do, maybe he will be more strict to himself, and at another time even with the same conditions happening he will choose to behave with love for himself, dignity, and love for others.
Everything a matter of choice and control…
‘And a certain ruler asked him, saying, ‘Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is God.” — Luke 18:18-19
Paulo posed the question, was the stranger who arrived in Viscos to tempt the villagers with eleven bars of gold, intrinsically bad.
It is necessary to have read The Devil and Miss Prym to fully understand the question, but well worth reading anyway.
The answer is no. Certainly the stranger had a flawed character, he was after all an arms dealer. His wife and child were slaughtered by terrorists, he sought vengeance, but when vengeance was not enough, he sought Truth. Ultimately though, he was an innocent man, caught up in a Cosmic battle between Good and Evil.
What the stranger shows, indeed all the people of Viscos show, is that we are all capable of good and evil. The good do evil deeds, the bad do good deeds. We each have on our shoulders a guardian angel and a devil, each whispering in our ears.
What we decide to do, ultimately depends on us. It is us who choose between the path of good and evil, no one else makes that choice for us.
I will have more to say on this when I publish my thoughts on The Devil and Miss Prym.
These thoughts will link from
http://www.heureka.clara.net/art/paulo-coelho.htm
Man is a being between ape and the so called homo sapiens.
He knows the difference between good and evil (and is therefore responsible for his deeds), but he has also the heritage of behaviour from the ape. Thus we cannot but following our urges and genetically determined behaviour, which is in connection with our intelligence a dangerous combination.
But I don’t think you can say man is intrinsically bad. We all have the chance to develop more towards homo sapiens!
I’d say a man is not bad. Per se a human is basicly above good ang evil and learns them and choses. God created us above it, and gave us free will in hope (and self-assurance) that we will choose him :-)
you are what you believe in.
man could be both intrinsically bad and good..
depending on his choices in his path as long as he uses his heart.
just as we have beginning and end.
No, neither is man (or woman) intrinsically good. We live our lives in a constant struggle between the two. And that makes living worthwhile.
Man was born good as God is good. However, God has given man two things, the heart and the mind. above them there is the soul, which overrides all evil and shows us the mirror to every action. man sometimes ignores the mirror fearing looking at the truth when doing evil, so man does something bad. given all chances, man would not do any bad things at all, but nobody said that the world is a fair place to live!
As I see it, God has created us carrying the both sides.
And all of us have maybe Good and bad at the same time.
Forexample, Mariah_the main character in the 11 minutes_ was good and bad with what she was doing.
Good for the men’s behalf and by contrast bad for her _except in the case of Ralv_.
Love,
Leena Z.
Aquarius
Maybe its like that saying “if you love someone set them free, if they return to you they’re yours, if not they never were”. Maybe God’s ultimate act of love was to give us the choice to Love him back or not. He gave us free will.
To love God is to love Love which is all that is good.
Kathleen xx
I am convinced that there is more good than bad in all people, but that environment, youth or self will inhibits a person from doing the right thing. I remember as a youth I got in a lot of trouble and at church I told the pastor, well I was tempted by the devil. The pastor told me, “Well that is just an excuse so you don’t have to take responsibility for your actions.” I was shocked!! I thought of all people the pastor should understand the temptation of the devil. That was when I learned that my God is stronger than the devil, and I have to rest on his strength to help me take right action. So, the question to you…who do you chose to give the power in your mind to - God or the devil?
Man is born in sin, I believe that it is only through Jesus’ mercy and love that we can become “good” in God’s eyes.
Man is good and bad. Man has the intrinsic potential of both. But I believe that man naturally gravitates towards being good. And when man is evil, it is not that there is the lack of “good” in him, its just that he has allowed evil to overgrow its boundaries, and to overshadow his good nature.
hello, every body
Are animals good or bad? I don’t think so, they’re just struggling for life, so we are.
We are neither good or bad but with our pain and joy that makes us act as we do. If A man is really happy he can’t even think about doing bad things. But the most dangerous thing is to deal with a wounded animal. In case you’d better kill it, heal it, or run away.
I think it’s the same subject as the tree of knowledge about good and bad.
Good and bad are very subjective, it’s a personnal judgement. Sometimes we think we do good and we’re wrong and vice versa.
St augustin says : “Love and then do what you please.”
that’s all folks and who can tell if it’s good or bad.
Only God knows and he judges our actions not what we are.
Love
ZADIG
hello ZADIG !
U say
“Are animals good or bad? I don’t think so, they’re just struggling for life, so we are.”
there is a diffrence, we can raise above our animal existance, God has given us a possibility and a freedom to delay as long as we please !
as u have said or rather quoted “St augustin says : “Love and then do what you please.”” yes ! that is the way !
Leaf !
scriptures are to be made into one’s bone & marrow and then they are to be forgotten, for your would have become the scripture.
aditya
Personally, I do not know. But my political party has taught me that Man is naturally good. The problem lies within the system; so, when something is wrong, we should attack the system and not the person.
Hello,
Maybe I’m rushing to the end of my explanation, but at this moment in my life, I do not think it is a matter of being intrinsically good or bad. In the end it comes to survival. I will call good people those who survive and get what they desire by not harming others, and i will call bad those who harm others.
Cheers,
Medea
To be what’s bad, we needed goodness…to be good we needed badness…then the light came.
Love
H
It rather depends what Man is for.
Man is intrinsically ignorant, and a good man in an evil society seems the greatest villain of all.
we are both, the angel and the devil.
That’s what make us so esptial, inside us are the to energies we CHOOSE what to be by every action, one of this energies grows stroger than the other making people believe that we are good or evil the thing is that we may be both.
It is our choise. We know, how to be good and how to bad. If you are good, your heart will smile and sometimes suffer a little bit. If you are bad, it will return to you and you will feel even worse then you are now. I try to do good stuff - therefore I feel quite often stupid and naive, sometimes surpissed because nice things happen - with out expectations. Hm….I think taht the bad people are thinking just about themselves and are not able to see what are they doing.
Follow the way doing good and the way will provide you, with the things that you deserve. Anyway, being bad is borring.
We all have light and we all have shadow. I think it’s what we choose to do with either or both that determines what humanity calls “good” and “bad.”
I think “good” “bad” are subjective.
One might appear good to some and very bad to some others. Its just the way we look at things… we may find good in even the worst of bad. So I guess with the right attitude, nothing can be inherently bad. :)
Of we look the symbolic part of this the man is accepted as the fertile part in everything, even the way it is painted or dressed with words, it is always somthing that connect the upper world with the one below. On the other hand the woman is represented as the “evil” one - she is described with a place for the man, as she is not completed, as somthing she is waiting for so to be perfect. Even it is a bad luck to have a woman on a boat, women carry the sin. But for me, the woman is the one who has the beautiful chance to make a choice, whether to have the apple or not, and she is strong enough to live with the consequences. Men are not bad, they fulfil their destiny.Their are here to test the womens’ strenght, the women are here to be generous enough to decide whether to make a man look bad or good, to decide whether it is worth to resist the temptation or just to try make people see that good and bad are not two sidesof a coin or the Man and the Woman but only two of the many faces one soul may have.
no,
but he (or she) is defenately a coward.
When looking good into the matter there
are always explanations to why someone is
doing something that seem to be evil or mad.
Explanations - not accepting “evil” actions
of course.
And mostly these actions bottom in fear.
I have asked myself the last days
what I could have done different… maybe
I should have tried talking with that crazy man
more than what I did?
But I don’t know which words that can go through
to the mind of a man who is drunk or on drugs??
Alcoholism can only be fought by the alchoholic himself-
when he puts an end to his own fear(s) and start fighting.
I have no power to make any decisions for him.
I’m not a nurse or a therapist either.
and now I feel like a coward because I fear him.
I think man is neither intrinsically good nor bad. I think a man simply intrinsically is! Our greatest gift in this experience of life is free will and so through this gift man inherently will live experiences both good and bad. One does not truly recognise one without the other. It’s as if human life is a further example of Newton’s Law and I suspect Universal Law. However I believe the soul of each of us is perfect and good and guides us each on our daily experiences of life. Sometimes the ego duels with the soul and we come to doubt a soul’s perfection but ultimately the soul is our constant connection point to The Source or God and it is Good!
I don’t think so…all of us is a gift and a precious gift because it was given by God. What made man bad is the experiences and society surrounding us. Some may have a choice, but unfortunately, there are some who have a choice…but we have all the time to change for the better we just need to open ourselves to what we think is the right and best thing to do…
Using the man’s standard for “good”, I can say that man is intrinsically good… we just forgot the “goodness” in us sometimes.