What do you think about this question taken from the Zen tradition : ” if a tree falls in the middle of a forest and there’s no one near by : does it make any sound?”
and if there is no one?
Previous post: 20th Anniversary of The Alchemist
Next post: Today’s Question by Aart Hilal
Previous post: 20th Anniversary of The Alchemist
Next post: Today’s Question by Aart Hilal
{ 190 comments… read them below or add one }
Next Comments →
Angels are talking to us all the time, but few of us hear. So in answer to the question, it all depends on how hard we listen.
The power is in the question and the wise questioner knows that one question can take a lifetime to answer. The answers we give in words reflect only one dimension of all the possible answers that could meet one question. A question is not only a test of knowledge and a discussion point but a catalyst to change.
The power is in the question. To sit without the answer, in a state of unknowing and be comfortable with it, is to embrace that point of infinity in which all things are possible.
Love and blessings
Rebecca
I agree with J – it depends on how we define sound.
Sounds as physcial airwaves (the dictionary definition) – yes, then it will make a sound. Why? Because it is a physical event, just like the falling of the tree itself and it touching the ground.
But if we define sound as s psychological event, as something we perceive with our brain, then I’d lean towards no (even though on closer inspection, one might ask “how do you define ‘no one is near by’” – some living being with consciousness might always around )
The point is though, that the sound would make an impact on the world. It sends vibrations through it, and even when these waves ultimately merge with the background white noise and becomes inaudible for humans, it will make a “difference”. Thinking of the butterfly effect and chaos theory.
Thanks for sharing this questions, I love how they make us reflect!
Hi Liisa,
U r right ‘reality’ as we know it is only tip of what all is or is not, e’g’ sound exists only for those who can hear; suppose there are animals / beings with sixth, seventh… sence of perception, difficult to imagine what all may be going on right in our mist and be have no instrument of perception to perceive them.
finally, the observer, you, me are most important.
A REQUEST TO ALL VISITORS HERE, PAULO KEEPS ON THROWING THESE ‘KOANS’ AT US, BUT HE NEVER PARTICPATES IN TRYING TO DECIPHER IT. I HAVE BEEN REQUESTING HIM OFF AND ON TO SOMETIMES SHARE HIS ‘VIEWS’ ON THE ‘TOPIC’ BUT AS U KNOW, IT SEEMS IT DOES NOT CREATE A SOUND IN HIS BEING- SO THE REQUEST TO U ALL – WHY DON’T U TOO ASK HIM TO SHARE HIS VIEWS ON THESE MAYBE ON THE PENULTIMATE DAY BEFORE THE TOPIC IS CHNAGED. A SINGLE TREE FALLING MAY OR MAYNOT MAKE A SOUND, BUT HOW ABOUT A WHOLE FOREST FALLING TOGATHER ??
LOVE
aditya
If you are thinking about “idea” of the tree in the wood and noone knows you are thinking about it-is it a thought?
IT DOES MAKE A SOUND.
I really do not know but i would love to ask the tree.
Dear A. Daneshgar …it is so true what you wrote.
and..
some people may see the whole world, but it doesn’t mean they notice..
love
Agnieszka
You’re right Linda. Universe is higher to let them grow, without they are uprooted.
As for the sound again, can we hear the last breath of someone, if we are not thereby ? It doesn’t mean it has not been blown.
There is no ‘answer’ to this question, but it is still one that needs to be asked. A bit like “What colour are the things in this room when all the lights are switched off and I sit here in darkness?”
All Zen koans are intended to send the mind in circles, so that it has no choice but to give up and give in – leaving only the knowing to remain. And that knowing bears no relation to any answers that may be heard.
Dear Agnieszka,
so encouraging, sweet and inspiring, what you said about your grandmother and people like her! Her way of life shows courage and strength.
Love
Lia
Dear J,
I loved your answer! You couldn’t have put a better SCIENTIFIC explanation to it! I read it through once..and thoroughly understood every single word and meaning of it!! I loved how you said it was nerdy in the end…..does that make me one too?
Lots of laughter,
czarina
The tree makes a sound. Because no one is around to hear it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Also, there are consequences to all actions, even the ones that go unnoticed.
yes….i believe the tree falling will make a sound. Heard or unheard…it will make a sound. As does all falling trees or breaking branches or rushing rivers…will make a sound. Even if there are no witnesses, no ears to hear them..these will all contribute to what i call the universal hum of life. All things – living or otherwise- contribute to this hum.
When a person does something bad without witnesses….or, without society to judge him…does that make his action ‘UN-bad’ (for lack of an accurate word)? When a person does a gracious & noble thing…without anybody around….does that action now become not good? Each action….witnessed or otherwise…contributes to the universal SOUL. Each one of us, is part of this whole. Each action…always has a consequence.
Even if UNWITNESSED…each of our actions make a sound….a SILENT SOUND.
I agree with most everyone here, of course it makes a sound. We all know, those this can actually not be proven (since no one will ever actaully here the sound). But I also see this question as a simple example of a very complicated question – Can you believe something you can not prove?
God is a good, much more complicated, example of this same question. I can not prove God exists. I believe God exists, I feel God in my heart, in my soul and I feel God guiding me at times when I need guidence the most. But I can not prove Gods existance. God can not be touched, heard, or seen by people who do not believe. Thus, it becomes near impossible to prove to them that God does exist.
For example, if someone were to say: “if a tree falls and no one is around to see it, then it DOES NOT make a noise”. You could not prove this person wrong, even though you may know they are wrong.
I agree with the above answers, they are what came to me, but I am not convinced that this is the point of the question. Instead I feel it leading me to somethng else, something not easy to define in words, and it is to do with the act of witnessing and being witnessed.
How many of us want to be seen, heard and understood in order to give our lives meaning? Does the life of the tree have no meaning if no one has witnessed its life or death? Does it even matter to the tree? What meaning do our lives have if no one witnesses our tragedies and our falls? Do they cease to be real, to have meaning?
Just some thoughts that this question inspired which I wanted to share.
Love and blessings
Rebecca
For the Universe it does make the same sound like that of the born of a child,the death of a king,i mean has exactly the same importance,no matter there is “nobody”near.The words are not my own invention,I heard them in”The WHite Elephant”,and was related to the Question what is the sound made by one single hand moved in the air.Chalenging Question,I wait for more.LOve
wow wat a wonderful question!
some people may always smile, that doesn’t mean they never cry
some people looks always powerful, that doesn’t mean they never fall
so the tree may make no sound, but it doesn’t change the fact that it has fallen.
A new reader from Iran :)
Dear Aditya, your post conveys what I was gonna say.
“if one can visulaise, see a tree falling in forest where no one is present, then one may as well ‘visulaise’ the sound.”
I also wanted to point out the connection between this and the earlier question, about believing before seeing. The same way I answered the earlier post, by dreaming into life my upcoming answer, the same way the tree did indeed make a sound when it collapsed in the forrest of my imagination. (And it seems to continue to collapse as often as I read out the word collapse in my mind, ha… *ph….phwamph* It was a big one too. :p )
I hope and prey that no tree needs to fall….however if it does fall, it will be heard.
si, si hace ruido, el que nadie lo escuche no quiere decir nada… si alguien ama en secreto y nadie lo sabe eso no hace k la persona deje de amar…. todo pasa sin k el mundo se percate.
xoxo
these zen chaps I tell U ! sound of one hand clapping, your face before u were born, the goose is out, well they have so mnay terrible, ‘koan’s to keep one’s mind engaged till eternity.
about this partcicular question, before answering it let me rephrase it a little bit ( so that an answer can be attempted ), is there anything perceived without a perceiver, is there any thing observed without an observer ?? well the answer is no; for sound to exist all three are required the observed, the observer and the process of observation ( e.g. if soneone is indeed present there but is in coma, or is listening to very loud music on his earphones, no sound would be there, provided the sound does not create any other effcet which can be observed by this chap )
if one can visulaise, see a tree falling in forest where no one is present, then one may as well ‘visulaise’ the sound.
love
aditya
Democrite would have heard it, because of his blindness.
Descartes would have to be there to hear and give his answer.
Einstein should know the sound’s already dead, and try to stand one minute before.
Edward Witten shoudn’t have to do the journey to say: no.
Buster Keaton should have fallen with.
Even if I could dream, I rather guess no one could tell, but the sound itself.
Yes it does. When something made a vibration and nobody hears it, it does not necessarily mean that it does not make a sound.
Every single thing in this world has a sound..
but the point is, will anyone hear it?
not bcoz we can’t hear it means that it is not there
NO
Does things that happened as noone is aware of it make sounds or sense?
For the common people , the things they are not aware of makes no sense or sound.
But I’m sure that we don’t perceive every sounds as violet brown.
Yes some people also heard sound where there is none.
Is silence a sound?
Thanks
Love
Damien
If there is an empty house with an empty room and in this room a radio is playing Bach, Beatles, U2 etc.
Will this room be filled with music?
In my mind, sound causes vibration. If a tree were to fall, the other trees and surrounding animals would feel the vibration. I belive that if I were deaf and near by, I would feel the tree fall. So, yes it makes a sound, a vibration.
The sound is only made if there is an entity aware of the tree falling that believes it makes a sound.
So even if 1,000 people are present, if they all believe the tree will not make a sound then only silence will be ‘heard.’
Scientific studies have shown the power of prayer (aka ‘belief) can have a physical affect on people who are not physically near those who are praying.
If we can prove that a simple prayer can physically affect our Universe, it stands to reason that the same kind of ‘prayer’ could affect whether or not a tree makes a sound.
If something happens, it happens. Even if there is no one to testimony, that thing will inevitably change the universe. Even the smallest thing, like a sound, like a tree fallen in a forest, is related to all things. Try to pretend that nothing happened since no one saw/heard it, is to negate the very essence of life.
The sound was not the intention,but silence.Silence giving way to a new growth.
I’ve always thought this question had more to do with anthropocentrism than whether a tree actually produces sound when it falls. We are very hung up on ourselves, and wonder whether the world (define “world” how you like) really matters if we are not in it.
Doesn’t this depend on the definition of “sound”? If we’re talking about a certain wave resonating at a particular wavelength and frequency, yeah.
If we’re talking about what we perceive, there’s all kinds of things that scientifically qualify as “sound” that we never hear, so it wouldn’t seem to exist in our immediate experience, like low-frequency elephant communication. Elephants can communicate across vast distances with a kind of low-frequency grunt that we can’t perceive with our ears; until that sound was picked up with scientific equipment, it didn’t exist for us.
So if our definition of sound is that which we can perceive, then anything outside our immediate, perceivable experience might as well not exist, but if our definition is that which has some recordable effect in the natural world, then yeah, every tree falling makes a sound.
God that was nerdy…
My message was for Lia.
So sad and true, what you wrote about elderly and lonely people; though I believe they have always God by their side.
My grandmother was not alone and yet although she had many terrible moments because of her marriage, her whole life she was full of God, full of light, smiling, caring, enjoying every moment like it was a gift from God; I always wanted to be like her.
love
Agnieszka
Transcrevo a seguinte opinião de Santo Agostinho, a qual, quanto a mim, se aplica na perfeição às perguntas da tradição zen:
“Quem enuncia um facto que lhe parece digno de crença ou acerca do qual forma opinião de que é verdadeiro, não mente, mesmo que o facto seja falso”
Abraço
Most certainly but… are we open enough to listen to it? Do people want to listen to it?
Or do we sometimes prefer to ignore the sound of the lonely trees when they fall down, trees that once had surely added to the beauty of the forest with their own greenness?
Your question reminds me of some elderly people who die abandoned and humiliated, as well as of some lonely people, homeless, unlucky, unhappy or whatever whose voice is weak and cannot make their sound heard even by those who are closest to them.
A sound is a sound no matter what way it manifests itself. We are full of sound emoted in different ways however some of our deepest most sincere sounds are never heard by anyone. Does that mean they don’t exist?
yes it does. don’t you know that nature has ears?
Its all a part of the cause and conditions that we all have ,as we are connected to that tree in different forms it would be heard and felt by all living things -physical ,spiritual and energetically . Vibration ..Blessings Tania
Yes.
I believe it does. But the sound will be different to each of us, when the sound wave splits and unite with the diversity of sounds on its way making different melodies to different places in the world.
This question reminds me of the last page of The Alchemist when Fatima blows a kiss to Santiago from another place in the world, and he receives it. The kiss have passed by other people, but to some of them it might just feel like a gentle breeze. To Santiago, it was a touch of love, a sound of her breath as her lips touches his cheek.
There’s always some(one); the birds, the flowers, the wind, the sun, …God… the infinite love.
love
Agnieszka
As you Daniel… though I can imagine they will always be a reed to listen to it.
Simple answer to this question, Yes. In this universe it does.
” if a tree falls in the middle of a forest and there’s no one near by : does it make any sound?”
This statement defies logic.
That’s the same as asking this question:
“If I eat a Crispy Cream alone in my living room and there’s no one near by : does the calories make any count?”
(wink)
I have heard this question before and I love it. Therefore I will not attempt to answer it. I am interested in what others have to say though.
hahaha Annie we said exactly the same thing, Of course it does!
Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction- Newton’s law
Next Comments →