What do you think about this question taken from the Zen tradition : ” if a tree falls in the middle of a forest and there’s no one near by : does it make any sound?”
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of course it does!!!! the falling tree will definitely make a sound, and this frequency will travel along the world, along the universe..
To make this more precise..everything and everyone resonates to a sound. even joy resonates to a specific frequency, thus a sound..and thoughts as well ..how many time have we dreamt of people and then we take a call from them.. even we may be so far away from each other
So i think that definitely the tree will make a sound, and will influence the whole world…and then, every person ‘faling’ will make a sound, influencing the universal energy…
Love and graditude to all
Annie
Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction- Newton’s law
hahaha Annie we said exactly the same thing, Of course it does!
I have heard this question before and I love it. Therefore I will not attempt to answer it. I am interested in what others have to say though.
” if a tree falls in the middle of a forest and there’s no one near by : does it make any sound?”
This statement defies logic.
That’s the same as asking this question:
“If I eat a Crispy Cream alone in my living room and there’s no one near by : does the calories make any count?”
(wink)
Simple answer to this question, Yes. In this universe it does.
Whether “we” hear it or not, it definitely makes a sound!
As you Daniel… though I can imagine they will always be a reed to listen to it.
There’s always some(one); the birds, the flowers, the wind, the sun, …God… the infinite love.
love
Agnieszka
I believe it does. But the sound will be different to each of us, when the sound wave splits and unite with the diversity of sounds on its way making different melodies to different places in the world.
This question reminds me of the last page of The Alchemist when Fatima blows a kiss to Santiago from another place in the world, and he receives it. The kiss have passed by other people, but to some of them it might just feel like a gentle breeze. To Santiago, it was a touch of love, a sound of her breath as her lips touches his cheek.
Yes.
Its all a part of the cause and conditions that we all have ,as we are connected to that tree in different forms it would be heard and felt by all living things -physical ,spiritual and energetically . Vibration ..Blessings Tania
yes it does. don’t you know that nature has ears?
A sound is a sound no matter what way it manifests itself. We are full of sound emoted in different ways however some of our deepest most sincere sounds are never heard by anyone. Does that mean they don’t exist?
Most certainly but… are we open enough to listen to it? Do people want to listen to it?
Or do we sometimes prefer to ignore the sound of the lonely trees when they fall down, trees that once had surely added to the beauty of the forest with their own greenness?
Your question reminds me of some elderly people who die abandoned and humiliated, as well as of some lonely people, homeless, unlucky, unhappy or whatever whose voice is weak and cannot make their sound heard even by those who are closest to them.
Transcrevo a seguinte opinião de Santo Agostinho, a qual, quanto a mim, se aplica na perfeição às perguntas da tradição zen:
“Quem enuncia um facto que lhe parece digno de crença ou acerca do qual forma opinião de que é verdadeiro, não mente, mesmo que o facto seja falso”
Abraço
So sad and true, what you wrote about elderly and lonely people; though I believe they have always God by their side.
My grandmother was not alone and yet although she had many terrible moments because of her marriage, her whole life she was full of God, full of light, smiling, caring, enjoying every moment like it was a gift from God; I always wanted to be like her.
love
Agnieszka
My message was for Lia.
Doesn’t this depend on the definition of “sound”? If we’re talking about a certain wave resonating at a particular wavelength and frequency, yeah.
If we’re talking about what we perceive, there’s all kinds of things that scientifically qualify as “sound” that we never hear, so it wouldn’t seem to exist in our immediate experience, like low-frequency elephant communication. Elephants can communicate across vast distances with a kind of low-frequency grunt that we can’t perceive with our ears; until that sound was picked up with scientific equipment, it didn’t exist for us.
So if our definition of sound is that which we can perceive, then anything outside our immediate, perceivable experience might as well not exist, but if our definition is that which has some recordable effect in the natural world, then yeah, every tree falling makes a sound.
God that was nerdy…
I’ve always thought this question had more to do with anthropocentrism than whether a tree actually produces sound when it falls. We are very hung up on ourselves, and wonder whether the world (define “world” how you like) really matters if we are not in it.
The sound was not the intention,but silence.Silence giving way to a new growth.
If something happens, it happens. Even if there is no one to testimony, that thing will inevitably change the universe. Even the smallest thing, like a sound, like a tree fallen in a forest, is related to all things. Try to pretend that nothing happened since no one saw/heard it, is to negate the very essence of life.
The sound is only made if there is an entity aware of the tree falling that believes it makes a sound.
So even if 1,000 people are present, if they all believe the tree will not make a sound then only silence will be ‘heard.’
Scientific studies have shown the power of prayer (aka ‘belief) can have a physical affect on people who are not physically near those who are praying.
If we can prove that a simple prayer can physically affect our Universe, it stands to reason that the same kind of ‘prayer’ could affect whether or not a tree makes a sound.
In my mind, sound causes vibration. If a tree were to fall, the other trees and surrounding animals would feel the vibration. I belive that if I were deaf and near by, I would feel the tree fall. So, yes it makes a sound, a vibration.
If there is an empty house with an empty room and in this room a radio is playing Bach, Beatles, U2 etc.
Will this room be filled with music?
Does things that happened as noone is aware of it make sounds or sense?
For the common people , the things they are not aware of makes no sense or sound.
But I’m sure that we don’t perceive every sounds as violet brown.
Yes some people also heard sound where there is none.
Is silence a sound?
Thanks
Love
Damien
NO
Every single thing in this world has a sound..
but the point is, will anyone hear it?
not bcoz we can’t hear it means that it is not there
if the tree is love, then the falling tree would be propably a love that is ‘hurt’ , a love possibly forgotten, a love that became a routine and her leaves have fallen, a love that possibly hurt someone of us…..and this love leaves always scars in our hearts…so , again, yes, we can hear the tree…whether it falls or not, our hearts always hear..
Love and Graditude..
Annie
Yes it does. When something made a vibration and nobody hears it, it does not necessarily mean that it does not make a sound.
Democrite would have heard it, because of his blindness.
Descartes would have to be there to hear and give his answer.
Einstein should know the sound’s already dead, and try to stand one minute before.
Edward Witten shoudn’t have to do the journey to say: no.
Buster Keaton should have fallen with.
Even if I could dream, I rather guess no one could tell, but the sound itself.
these zen chaps I tell U ! sound of one hand clapping, your face before u were born, the goose is out, well they have so mnay terrible, ‘koan’s to keep one’s mind engaged till eternity.
about this partcicular question, before answering it let me rephrase it a little bit ( so that an answer can be attempted ), is there anything perceived without a perceiver, is there any thing observed without an observer ?? well the answer is no; for sound to exist all three are required the observed, the observer and the process of observation ( e.g. if soneone is indeed present there but is in coma, or is listening to very loud music on his earphones, no sound would be there, provided the sound does not create any other effcet which can be observed by this chap )
if one can visulaise, see a tree falling in forest where no one is present, then one may as well ‘visulaise’ the sound.
love
aditya
si, si hace ruido, el que nadie lo escuche no quiere decir nada… si alguien ama en secreto y nadie lo sabe eso no hace k la persona deje de amar…. todo pasa sin k el mundo se percate.
xoxo
I hope and prey that no tree needs to fall….however if it does fall, it will be heard.
Dear Aditya, your post conveys what I was gonna say.
“if one can visulaise, see a tree falling in forest where no one is present, then one may as well ‘visulaise’ the sound.”
I also wanted to point out the connection between this and the earlier question, about believing before seeing. The same way I answered the earlier post, by dreaming into life my upcoming answer, the same way the tree did indeed make a sound when it collapsed in the forrest of my imagination. (And it seems to continue to collapse as often as I read out the word collapse in my mind, ha… *ph….phwamph* It was a big one too. :p )
wow wat a wonderful question!
some people may always smile, that doesn’t mean they never cry
some people looks always powerful, that doesn’t mean they never fall
so the tree may make no sound, but it doesn’t change the fact that it has fallen.
A new reader from Iran :)
For the Universe it does make the same sound like that of the born of a child,the death of a king,i mean has exactly the same importance,no matter there is “nobody”near.The words are not my own invention,I heard them in”The WHite Elephant”,and was related to the Question what is the sound made by one single hand moved in the air.Chalenging Question,I wait for more.LOve
I agree with the above answers, they are what came to me, but I am not convinced that this is the point of the question. Instead I feel it leading me to somethng else, something not easy to define in words, and it is to do with the act of witnessing and being witnessed.
How many of us want to be seen, heard and understood in order to give our lives meaning? Does the life of the tree have no meaning if no one has witnessed its life or death? Does it even matter to the tree? What meaning do our lives have if no one witnesses our tragedies and our falls? Do they cease to be real, to have meaning?
Just some thoughts that this question inspired which I wanted to share.
Love and blessings
Rebecca
I agree with most everyone here, of course it makes a sound. We all know, those this can actually not be proven (since no one will ever actaully here the sound). But I also see this question as a simple example of a very complicated question - Can you believe something you can not prove?
God is a good, much more complicated, example of this same question. I can not prove God exists. I believe God exists, I feel God in my heart, in my soul and I feel God guiding me at times when I need guidence the most. But I can not prove Gods existance. God can not be touched, heard, or seen by people who do not believe. Thus, it becomes near impossible to prove to them that God does exist.
For example, if someone were to say: “if a tree falls and no one is around to see it, then it DOES NOT make a noise”. You could not prove this person wrong, even though you may know they are wrong.
yes….i believe the tree falling will make a sound. Heard or unheard…it will make a sound. As does all falling trees or breaking branches or rushing rivers…will make a sound. Even if there are no witnesses, no ears to hear them..these will all contribute to what i call the universal hum of life. All things - living or otherwise- contribute to this hum.
When a person does something bad without witnesses….or, without society to judge him…does that make his action ‘UN-bad’ (for lack of an accurate word)? When a person does a gracious & noble thing…without anybody around….does that action now become not good? Each action….witnessed or otherwise…contributes to the universal SOUL. Each one of us, is part of this whole. Each action…always has a consequence.
Even if UNWITNESSED…each of our actions make a sound….a SILENT SOUND.
The tree makes a sound. Because no one is around to hear it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Also, there are consequences to all actions, even the ones that go unnoticed.
Dear J,
I loved your answer! You couldn’t have put a better SCIENTIFIC explanation to it! I read it through once..and thoroughly understood every single word and meaning of it!! I loved how you said it was nerdy in the end…..does that make me one too?
Lots of laughter,
czarina
Dear Agnieszka,
so encouraging, sweet and inspiring, what you said about your grandmother and people like her! Her way of life shows courage and strength.
Love
Lia
There is no ‘answer’ to this question, but it is still one that needs to be asked. A bit like “What colour are the things in this room when all the lights are switched off and I sit here in darkness?”
All Zen koans are intended to send the mind in circles, so that it has no choice but to give up and give in - leaving only the knowing to remain. And that knowing bears no relation to any answers that may be heard.
You’re right Linda. Universe is higher to let them grow, without they are uprooted.
As for the sound again, can we hear the last breath of someone, if we are not thereby ? It doesn’t mean it has not been blown.
Dear A. Daneshgar …it is so true what you wrote.
and..
some people may see the whole world, but it doesn’t mean they notice..
love
Agnieszka
I really do not know but i would love to ask the tree.
IT DOES MAKE A SOUND.
If you are thinking about “idea” of the tree in the wood and noone knows you are thinking about it-is it a thought?
Hi Liisa,
U r right ‘reality’ as we know it is only tip of what all is or is not, e’g’ sound exists only for those who can hear; suppose there are animals / beings with sixth, seventh… sence of perception, difficult to imagine what all may be going on right in our mist and be have no instrument of perception to perceive them.
finally, the observer, you, me are most important.
A REQUEST TO ALL VISITORS HERE, PAULO KEEPS ON THROWING THESE ‘KOANS’ AT US, BUT HE NEVER PARTICPATES IN TRYING TO DECIPHER IT. I HAVE BEEN REQUESTING HIM OFF AND ON TO SOMETIMES SHARE HIS ‘VIEWS’ ON THE ‘TOPIC’ BUT AS U KNOW, IT SEEMS IT DOES NOT CREATE A SOUND IN HIS BEING- SO THE REQUEST TO U ALL - WHY DON’T U TOO ASK HIM TO SHARE HIS VIEWS ON THESE MAYBE ON THE PENULTIMATE DAY BEFORE THE TOPIC IS CHNAGED. A SINGLE TREE FALLING MAY OR MAYNOT MAKE A SOUND, BUT HOW ABOUT A WHOLE FOREST FALLING TOGATHER ??
LOVE
aditya
I agree with J - it depends on how we define sound.
Sounds as physcial airwaves (the dictionary definition) - yes, then it will make a sound. Why? Because it is a physical event, just like the falling of the tree itself and it touching the ground.
But if we define sound as s psychological event, as something we perceive with our brain, then I’d lean towards no (even though on closer inspection, one might ask “how do you define ‘no one is near by’” - some living being with consciousness might always around )
The point is though, that the sound would make an impact on the world. It sends vibrations through it, and even when these waves ultimately merge with the background white noise and becomes inaudible for humans, it will make a “difference”. Thinking of the butterfly effect and chaos theory.
Thanks for sharing this questions, I love how they make us reflect!
The power is in the question and the wise questioner knows that one question can take a lifetime to answer. The answers we give in words reflect only one dimension of all the possible answers that could meet one question. A question is not only a test of knowledge and a discussion point but a catalyst to change.
The power is in the question. To sit without the answer, in a state of unknowing and be comfortable with it, is to embrace that point of infinity in which all things are possible.
Love and blessings
Rebecca
Angels are talking to us all the time, but few of us hear. So in answer to the question, it all depends on how hard we listen.
in this forest, there is always the neighbour tree, that ’sees’ the falling tree…maybe the trees cant hear..but maybe they can understand from the soil of the forest that one of them has fallen..nature understands everything…sees with her own eyes..
doesnt this SOUND so pity ? everyone of us can be thought of as a tree…and the neighbour may not even notice us..he may notice that we are not around when the windows are closed or the car is not moved for days, but the Universe knows..always knows..
Love and Graditude
Annie
And another one thing!!! How does the tree fall without anyone around??i mean if there are not people cutting it and calling ‘timber’ how and why does it fall..i believe that everything and anyone who ‘falls’ there is a reason for it, behind the fall.. or another thought, if there are not people around, did it not want to grow?? as many people do, when they dont want to live and live their life like ghosts??
Love and Graditude
Annie
No, the tree does not make a sound. This question is not about sound, but about what a tree really is, the essence of the tree. The essence of the tree is about stillness,consciousness, presence. So no, what the tree really is does not make a sound. Funny isn’t it?
If you Listen enough,, you will probably hear trees whisper, can you imagine what would happen if it really falls!!! a tornado, ONLY if we listen Enough.
That is the way I like to interpret it:
There are enough strong trees in a healthy forest. It does not matter (makes no sound) when one of them falls in the middle - the forest will have no damage. In the contrary there will be a free place and light for a new seed to grow, which will develop into a new big and strong tree.
Life is like the forest, the falling tree is a symbol for failure or things going wrong in your life. When nobody is hurt (nobody is near by) by it, it is not bad and not worthwhile to worry too much about it. Take it as a chance to let grow something new in the free place.
Dear Paulo,
I hope you will explain what this question originally meant! I am curious now!
Great question! It is one those things that are designed specifically for emptying your mind of thoughts. Unfortunately this sort of thing no longer works on people. We have grown beyond it. Many have now become aware of the ‘beyond logic’ and of the fact that the universe is constantly listening. Humans are no longer considered the center of the world. So even if there is noBODY there, the trees, the earth and the spirits of the forest may still be listening. GOD is still listening. I believe it makes a sound.
Well, I think of course will make sound,perhaps anyboday there isn’t near of the forest, in my opinion sound don’t depend on people, depend on the reality of the nature.
” if a tree falls in the middle of a forest and there’s no one near by : does it make any sound?”
- No, it doesn’t. If I don’t hear it, it has no effect on me or my life, or anyone else’s (including animals in the forest) for that matter.
- It’s irrelevant, wouldn’t make a difference either way.
We all need an audience, its universe’s nature:)))
Of course. The fact the we don’t hear it it doesn’t mean there is no sound.. movement is sound .. everything that moves in a manner makes a sound…
Qué es lo importante, oir o ser oidos? oir o querer oir? ruidos hay muchos, el arbol certainement fera du bruit quand il tombera…ahora bien, pueden estar miles de personas cerca y no haberlo apreciado ninguna…y viceversa, no haber nadie, y que alguien, lo haya sentido caer…
It’s the same question like the following one: when God can’t help Himself/Herself creating a beautiful thing, like a precious flower in the middle of the jungle or anywhere else in the middle of wilderness, if no one sees it, does it mean that it doesn’t exist, that it makes no sense in this world?
Everything happens for a reason, for everything to evolve. Even if we see, hear or not, happenings take place and they have effects on short and long term! It depends on what we choose to believe in… :-)
Lots of affection and all the best in the world,
Carmen Larisa
P.S. Happy 20th anniversary of the beautiful and wise words in “The Alchemist!” May they live forever in the Light of the Spirit! :-) May we all identify with the eternal Spirit!
Of course. It does. I can even hear it.
It definitely, creates or transforms a form of energy…
If a flower is picked from where it is growing does it make a sound? If a stone or a shell is removed from where it was anchored does it make a sound? If a heart that is full of love and light has shadows cast upon it does it make a sound? The intention behind the action will determine the effects of the “sound” for all dont you think?
It depends on your mind.
I was recently thinking about this very question as I was mushroom hunting in the woods. I revisited the same woods several times over a period of a few weeks. The last time I was there the terrain was barely recognizable from the past week. Much growth had occured, and the deer trails were barely visible. Then I noticed a fallen tree, it must have come down as a result of a recent storm and was freshly splintered near the base of the trunk. I was not there when it happened, thank God, but I am sure that the deer, bunnys and birds heard it. I do not understand how anyone can think that it would not make a sound. God is everywhere, He does not need a human presence to exist.
Is the question a relevant one? The sound exists, in and of itself.
it will. all is interconnected in this universe.
There are two kinds of events: objective and intersubjective. If a tree falls and there is no one to hear it falling, then it causes simply vibrations in the air. If a person is there, then the objective becomes intersubjective. Then, and only then it’s a sound. The sound is an intersubjective event.
God doesn’t exist because we cannot see him?
A rose is not red because we cannot see it?
Well, a tree still does make a sound although no one is around to hear it!
what’s so complicate about it?
:)
Si, hará el mismo ruido que si hubiera cientos de personas escuchando.
if there is no one to hear it - then there is no sound!
you can see it in a different way:
someone did something very honorable and nobody knows about it and all the people surronding him will never know about it… did this someone do this very honorable then? did he really do it? there is no acknowledgement whatsoever! there is no sound!
no…there wouldnt be any sound..for you cry only to be heard , so that somebody who hears you would come & offer you thier love & warmth …when theres none to hear , there is no purpose to speak…