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Saint Augustine says : an unjust law should not be considered as a law. We equally see throughout history that many people rebelled against the system because they considered it unjust: Gandhi, Thoreau, Martin Luther King, Simon Bolivar. On the other hand a society needs laws in order to function – or else anarchy will rule. In your opinion, what distinguishes an unjust law from a law that we simply do not want to comply to?
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An unjust law is an unfair law. It’s not so much distinguished from laws that people don’t want to obey as subsumed within that much broader category. (That is, there are many just as well as just laws that people often try to avoid complying with.)
Justice has the colour of the ink that writes it. Justice its shaped, transformed and adjust according to the views of the majority or menority in some cases. But who are they to say of what is just?
Rules and laws are given to organize and control individuals of a certain group, to develop societies which will maintain a certain order on the ways things are done thus developing cultures, countries, religions. These cultures, countries and religions will keep reshaping, transforming and adjusting the same laws/rules to keep the order and stability of the societies on which they were built.
But humankind its extraordinary!
There are no unjust laws as much as there will always be laws that we wont comply to just because it doesn’t suit our persona or situation.
What is Justice? Who can tell what is fair or not? Is it in the eyes of the oppressed or in the mind of the oppressor, the oppressor can become the oppressed and the oppressed can become the oppressor.
Wow so much wisdom and insight and yet trying to define what is just and unjust is like trying to hold the wind i your hand. The closest and simplest explanation goes right back to Paulo’s book the Alchemist where the simple shepherd in many challenging situations listens to his heart wherein all the answers lie, irrespecive of culture or religion or preconceived notions. We simply have to become still and wait for the one true answer that tells us what is right in any situation where this question arises. Yes, those situations are infinite but the truth will always be the same, if we abandon our egos and listen to our heart and soul. As a wise person once said, it is not who is right but what is right, and that knowledge or answer is available to all mankind if we just take the necessary time…take care everyone..:-)
For me there is an unjust law.
There are helpess creatures in the hands of humans. It´s a long torture for most of them that only finish with their death.
A bird for example. A bird behind the bars of a cage. Day after day. It´s a torture.
Some humans like to think that they are happy but I would like to hear what the birds have to say about that.
They cannot protect themselves. They are just there, in the cage. And some humans are very cruel with them.
***
I would like that humans who may read this could take a moment to imagine what must feel a bird who is obliged (because of the darkness of humans) to spend his/her whole Life contemplating Life with nothing to do but wait behind bars. Every single day. The same.
I would like also that we could compare the Life of the birds who Live freely, with the Life of our poor bird, the one who is into the cage of the house of a human.
***********
And the same happen with the other slaves: dogs, cats, snakes, rabbits, etc.
The dark side of humans need to keep these helpless creatures as slaves.
True Understanding is starting to Bright in the Heart of humans however. While this process is Helping us to see the face of God, we could try to give our slaves a better Life.
What do they need to have a better Life? What would have had if they had been born Free, in the Wild?
If our slaves (dogs, cats, birds, etc.) are having an antinatural Life, what could we do to improve their quality of Life?
Of course there are slaves who are luckier than others; that also depends, generally speaking, on the country (the environment) they are Living. Some countries (or environment) are awful if they have had the misfortune of having been born there.
Maybe it is a question of Education and also changing the humans laws to Help them but … I think that Change, that Law, that Miracle, must happen in the Heart of humans.
Through True Understanding.
Why do we need slaves at home (a rabbit, a snake, a bird, a dog, a cat) if most of them are not having what they need?
Do we Love them? Do we really Love them?
We could treat our slaves the best we can and we could consider, next time we might wish another one, if they are having what they need to have to fulfill their Lives.
Or are we just thinking that they are happy because we want to think they are happy?
Well said, Jherskie. I think the answer to this question is definitely subjective. It depends on the life an individual has lived and greatly on culture. Laws that we may think are absurd and an infringement on our personal rights may be commonplace and accepted in another country. Even within our country, sub-cultures may have different views on laws. Take views on polygamy, abortion and Stem Cell technology here in the US. Some greatly support and others greatly oppose these issues.
When you get to the base of the matter, a just law is one that brings equality, maintains stability and frees from harm, those within a society. The real questions become, what is equality, what is stability, what is considered harm, and even, who is considered a member of society? That, I believe, will always be debatable.
Jherskie,
With that definition of just laws, not many laws are just I am afraid…
i’ve seen in one of your books:
there is one real law:
“Love other people how you would like to be loved”
and all the rest is only an over-written description.
i still think it’s just a matter of perspective.
as others had commented before me, the question of distinction between an unjust law and a law we simple do not want to comply to is a subjective one. the heart will know if there is justice to the rules brought down upon the people.
but as always, the heart is easily blinded. some may easily say that a law is unjust, while some will just say it is not (and they’d all not comply with it in the end).
the easiest measuring stick that will allow people to discern whether or not a law is unjust is this: if a law serves to bring about social order, make every member of the society equal in ranking, privileges and responsibilities, foster a good environment for the development of EACH and every one of the individual members, and nurture and protect individual freewill – then surely that law is just.
…then that law is an unjust law.
I think an unjust law is a law which don’t correspond to the good of the community; this is the reason that shoud drive every citizen to reject it.
A law we don’t want to comply to is a law that is simply prejudicial to our interest.
L’ humanité n’ est pas prête à vivre sans lois et non plus à vivre dans l’ anarchie. Qui décident des lois,et à qui servent t’ elles. Ecrire des livres sur les lois c’ est très bien mais dans la réalité appliquer ces lois est une tout autre chose. La démocratie est une illusion, car l’ économie mondiale empêche la justice, la libre expression, et l’ égalité. L’ économie mondiale rend l’ être esclave de sa survie, manger, dormir, s’ habiller , boire, vivre dans la paix. Pour manger, pour dormir sur un lit déscend , pour s’ habiller il faut travailler, sans travail , sans argent une personne n’ est rien, peu importe son âge ou sa condition. Dans cette perspective de survie, la démocratie se vie difficillement, alors celle ci se vie par la violence. Les peuples se rebelles à leur façon , par la criminalité, par le pouvoir, par la discrimination, par la haine, par le mépris, le racisme, les guerres , la violence conjugale, la violence familliale, la violence économique, la prostitution. Ces par la démocratie que les lois peuvent naîtres. Sans démocratie les lois seront toujours dictées par des gens avides de pouvoir et qui n’ arriveront jamais à faire de notre monde , un monde où la pauvreté et les inégalités sociales verront le jour. L’ économie mondiale rend l’ humain dépendant d’ un système qui l’ éloigne de la démocratie, qui l’ éloigne de ses droits, et qui l’ éloigne de l’ arene politique. Nous sommes tous occupés à chercher à nous mettre de la nourriture sous la dent et à payer notre loyer, pendant ce temps l’ humanité se détèriorent, et les guerres sont toujorus présentes sur la terre, des enfants ne mangent pas et des femmes battus traînent les rues en risquant leur vie jour après jour, et ont en fait un problème individuel, lorsque cela est un problème sociale et économique..
Je suis en accord avec Saint Augustin. Mais aujourd’ hui des Saint Augustin il n’ y en a pas. Si peu. Nous aimerions bien changer les choses mais les grands médias ne nous écoutes pas, les élites sociaux ne nous écoutent pas, rien ne changent. Ce n’est qu’ illusion de dire que nous sommes plus éveillées qu’ avant, c’ est de la bonne conscience.
Les humains aiment les conflits, ils s’ en abreuvent, sans conflits ils croient que la vie n’a pas d’ importance. Un rien, un regard, une phrase déplacée et les conflits éclatent. Les humains aiments les conflits parcequ’ ils veulent d’ un coté faire cesser les injustices sociales, mais de l’ autre coté ils ne changent rien dans leurs propres habitudes de conscommations et de pensées. Il y a beaucoup d’ hypocrisie, de mensonges.
Pour se libérer de tous ces conditionnements qui empêchent l’ homme d’ être libre cela demande beaucoup de courage et de volonté car peu y arrive, et avec l’ économie mondiale encore peu y arriveront. La plupart tombe malade, ou se suicide avant d’ en arriver là…
Les lois servent l’ économies, comme elles servaient les rois dans les régimes monarchiques, comme elles servaient les religions au moyen âge…Aujorud, hui Dieu est l’ Argent. Au détriment de la Vie, du sacré en nous. Sans argents l’ être humain, la vie n’ a plus son sens…
Une question fort intéresante qui demanderait un plus grand espace de discussion…Merci de l’ avoir soulevée…
I think it depends on our own quality. How good are we in self- restraint and self justice. How much can we put ourselves in others shoes and judge. Mahatma Gandhi rebelled against the government which ruled him… But all those who rebel against the government are not Mahatma Gandhis. I feel we must be good enough to find our own mistakes, Then we will definitely be good enough to find mistakes with the law.
A good lawyer.
On a more introspective note, an unjust law is one that we cannot viscerally tolerate, even if it doesn’t affect us personally.
An unjust law is a law that is applicated.
Love
Damien
An unjust law is typically a law that permitts a certain amount of human beings an amount of rights that another group cannot have.
It’s our basic childlike mentality of what’s right and wrong. Unjust laws are the wrong. Any law that puts anyone in an unfair position. For example, treating every Muslim that enters America’s borders as a potential terrorist. This is unjust, because it defies our basic human rights, not to be stereotyped. Once again, those childhood lessons of “Don’t judge a book by it’s cover”.
Unjust laws are basically a violation of an individual, or a group of people’s, basic human rights.
woops…meant to say most people wouldn’t argue that speed limits “aren’t” morally acceptable
an unjust law would be one that violates some sort of basic and more or less universally acknowledged human right
a law we simply wish not to comply with, on the other hand, would be one wich, while being generally acknowledged as morally acceptable, still stands in the way of or somehow serves to keep in check a common human desire….such as the desire to speed on the highway in order to get somewhere faster. most people wouldn’t argue that speed limits are morally acceptable, and yet most people deliberately speed on a regular basis
I do like what Memarie and Alison have posted – they seem to be speaking from a similar voice. For Augustine, an unjust law would have been anything that violated his version of Christianity. That notion of truth and justice has shifted.
It should be noted, however, that Augustine spoke from a particular experience – he truly lived life prior to his recommitment to Christianity. Would he himself have characterized his actions in his early decades as unlawful? Unjust? Simply justified given the authority within which they were pursued? His problem with theodicy did not come till later.
Unjust outcomes make me squeamish, as well as a lack of legitimate authority.
I wish my reading comprehension in all other romance languages was better. :(
An unjust law is one that provides incentives for us to value life differently. Any law that implicitly says a group of people don’t deserve to have what everyone else deserves to have because their lives aren’t worth as much, is unjust.
A law which supress or discriminates people or a law which gives so much freedom without any accountability.
An unjust law is a law we deem to go against justice. A unfair law that does not consider the welfare of all people.
A law that we do not want to comply too; is our use of our free-will, (our inherent nature, that which makes us human), with this we can for the most part rationally determine the fairness of the law. Because our nature is to question everything, even its just for a milli-second, we can discern if the law is useless, unjust, goes against our morals, is unfair toward innocent parties so on and on. This I feel is our right.
Unjust laws exist where greed, tyranny or dictatorship of the ruling class is prevalent.
Laws that we do not want to comply with are the product of pettyness and/or shortsightedness.
The fact is no distinction exists between such laws.
Bad law is or should be tantamount to no law at all.
An unjust law, simply put, is one which serves “justice” without the right justification while a law which we simply do not want to comply to, is one which serves “justice” but we do not believe in its justification. The former lacks essence, the latter lacks acceptance.
Paulo, What did those Jesuits do to you? So serious this week!
To me an example of an unjust law could be; Everybody has to learn the same Curriculum in school. Imagine if you have a frog, a monkey, a cat, a turtle, a bird, a dog and an elephant, and ask them all to climb a tree. Certainly, the task is easy enough for the bird, the monkey, the cat and even for the frog. How about the elephant,the dog or the turtle? They couldn’t climb the tree, no matter how hard they try. So, therefore schools should offer individualized education. Right?
A law we do not want to comply to? Take the law; Everybody, during any nation’s education system learn to read and write, and a few moral principles. In undeveloped places, the parents might keep their children away from school to help working on the farm, or in the family business. In overdeveloped places, people often set themselves above any moral principles and say anything goes. In both cases the student will miss out on a great opportunity to learn something fundamental to have a good life.
So how did the St. Augustin distinguish between the two? He referred to the masculine legalistic Church, and found the answer in the conscience of each individual, who will search for the law of the heart, as an ultimate goal, when looking for the truth.
Heart.
Heart’s will
I´m sorry, I dont´speak and writte inglish.
las leyes están creadas para una colectividad, un sistema, un país, una nación, ya es bastante díficil saber cuando un individuo es justo, para intentar saber cuando una ley es justa.
Yo pienso que las leyes son siempre injustas, siempre hay alguien que se perjudica.
Con esto no quiero decir que no deba de haber leyes, sino que como dice Memare, hay que plantearse ¿Qué es justicia? ¿Qué es justo?, en mi opinión: “la ecuanimidad” o lo que es lo mismo equilibrio.
¿Y no es equiibrio al que le violen, que se ha violado? ¿Al que le roben que le robemos? ¿Al que le asesinen, que sea asesinado ?. ¿Volvemos entonces a la Ley del Talión?.
“Demos a Dios lo que es de Dios y al César lo que es del César”. Que cada uno obre con su responsabilidad, según la cultura, el país, y el momento en que se encuentre. Que cada uno pelee por que en su país se hagan las leyes lo más justa posible según su conciencia.
Losjuristan se basan en el interés de un sistema, una comunidad, con lo cual están influenciados por lo cultura de la sociedad o el país al que pertenezcan,…es más se deben a sus partidos, el partido se debe a sus votantes, todos los votantes nos debemos
a una idea preconcebida, ( ni que hablar de las ideas religuiosas)
unos votantes, a su vez estos se dejan influenciar y más últimamente por los mass-media, en el mio en concreto
(España) hubo un atentado contra Miguel Angel Blanco, y la estadística de personas a favor de la pena de muerte aumentó.
Y las estadísticas, a quién se deben las personas que hacen estas estadísticas?
Todas las leyes son injustas, con una injusticia directamente proporcional a los intereses de sus legisladores. Las leyes más justas serán las leyes hechas por la mayor cantidad de hombres y mujeres justos, sin intereses.
¿Dónde buscarlos? Haberlos, hailos, como las brujas, ¿Dónde hallarlos si la mayoría son tan justos que no desean hacer justicia?.
En cuanto a su cumplimiento, creo que las leyes son
de debido cumplimiento. (claro que habrá siempre excepciones)
Estamos en un sistema y nos debemos a él, si no nos gusta, luchar por mejorar, cuando joven yo odiaba a los jueces, a los legisladores, todavía creo que tengo algo de eso, pero reconozco en mi opinión que un concenso, el mejor concenso posible, es la única vía posible de una convivencia en paz. Y la paz es el único cauce posible para educar a los niños, futuros legisladores para
hacer cada vez leyes más justas.
Las leyes escritas por hombres para hacer que la impunidad sea la forma de vida, por ende no son respetadas. Las leyes que son escritas por hombres que saben que mienten, por ende no son respetadas. Las leyes que son escritas para dominar como un imperio anulando todas las disposiciones internacionales de convivencia civilizada, por ende no son respetadas.
Las leyes que han sido fabricadas para impedir que la verdad sea conocida como revela la Biblia en el tiempo en el que la Bestia marca a los seres humanos, por ende no son respetadas. Y la Bestia ya marca a los seres humanos con las implantaciones de microchips de Verichip de los Estados Unidos de America, basados en torturas experimentales con seres humanos, por ende no son respetadas. Las leyes que surgen para proteger mafias secretas, por ende no son respetadas.
La ley que no es igual para el poderoso que para el que es reprimido, por ende no es respetada.
Las leyes que anulan las libertad de PENSAMIENTO, por ende no son respetadas.
LAS LEYES que anulan la LIBERTAD de EXPRESION, por ende no son respetadas.
Las leyes que dicen castigar el terror cuando el terror es propio, por ende no son respetadas.
Las leyes que surgen de la mentira, por ende no son respetadas.
Las leyes que son escritas por los hombres que no desean respetar los derechos humanos, y que conforman nuevas formas de apartheid, por ende no son respetadas.
Las leyes que pretenden hacer que unos pocos mafiosos se arroguen el derecho de ser dioses esclavisando a millones de seres humanos, por ende no son respetadas.
Alejandra H. Covarrubias
Periodista
Cuando una ley va en contra de los derechos humanos. Es injusta.
Un beso Paulo.
I think that the best would be an ‘acid test’. First of all apply this law to one that you really love. Afterwards apply it to someone who you really hate.
If your feelings have not been the same it means that it is not just!
A law should be to bring some order to our coexistence. Not imposition.
Joan
Ultimately there is no other law than the supreme one: Each of us has an unconditional obligation to fulfill our destiny.
At their very best, human laws can promote a social environment where compliance with that supreme law is facilitated. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.
None of us can escape our responsibility to determine whether a particular law must be broken or obeyed in order to comply with the supreme one.
Sure, there will be consequences if one would decide to break the laws of a society. But history shows that subservience may entail even worse consequences.
I had a law professor in college who always used the say:
“The law is an island floating on a sea or morality”.
Basically, this means that anything that is against the law should be immoral, however, just because something is immoral does not mean it should be against the law.
In my view, an unjust law is one that infringes on people freedome, the freedom to choose, the freedome to live happy lives and pursue their dreams. Laws are meant to protect people, not hinder them.
I guess it could be argued that making murder illegal is hindering someone’s desire to kill another, but that is ok because under no circumstances does anyone have the right to hurt another, and people should be protected from those who would want to hurt other people.
America has had its share of very unjust laws in the past. Just a decade ago we dealt with segregation. Blacks were not allowed to attend the same schools as white kids, use the same bathrooms, drinking fountains…etc. This served no other purpose that to make sure that blacks were never treated as equals in this country. This is an unjust law, it protected no one, and only served to hinder a large group of people from achieving their dreams.
We also currently have a very strick just law regarding driving while intoxicated. Though it does restrict someone ability to go out and drink way to much, then get behind a wheel a drive, the danger this action poses to public is very evident, and thus I would consider this law just. This law serves to protect the general public, while not really hindering anyones ability to do anything. There are plenty of other means of transportation to and from bars.
The laws that we just don’t want to follow are just bothersome laws really. They do not serve to protect anyone, but they also do not really restrict anyones rights as a human either. The best example of this would probably be J-walking.
I think that not everyone can distinguish between the two…because if everyone could, the unjust low would never exist in the fist place. The reason that we have those unjustis lows is because some people can’t or simply don’t want to recognize the fact that we all different one from another but in the same time we are equal.
This may be a biblical question, Mr. Coelho? St. Augustine spoke of Divine Law vs. the laws of men. He urged his audience to obey the church and not the government, the church and not the community and not the Army.
But every society has its unwritten agreements, even a society of two. They differ based on one’s frame of reference. And if that law, according to St. Augustine, is not in accordance with God’s law, then it is not Supreme. It has no authority. We only have anarchy, I think it goes, when man disobeys both flavors simultaneously.
What defines a just law?
I feel that Laws must be based on morals, ethics and values to be considered valid. Laws that are unjust are well, not really considered solid commandments in a way.
Yes, some laws are unjust and we as normal citizens often respond harshly to them. But then again, would they if the law itself was just and right?
This leaves much debate as it goes both ways but the bottomline is that Laws are supposed to maintain order and protect the less fortunate, not the other way around.
an unjust law is a law that doesnt benefit the people, but
rather the ruling body and is a means of manipulation for
personal gain. It oppresses the people and serves no
civil value. what about the law of gravity?
we are condemned to remain grounded on this earth,
that is unjust.
An unjust law is the law that violates the basic Human Rights. The dreamers may think of a World that everybody is doing his duty without having to be ‘forced’. The violation of the Law [natural or spiritual], has a penalty and a punishment, so that people may be prevented of acting unlawfully. Conscience is the battlefield for our actions and decisions. Evolution means …breaking the rules and boundaries and sometimes this happens after a rebellion. But Gandhi has shown us another peaceful way and Jesus had said “Love your enemy…” ‘LOVE, THELMA
I agree with Memarie’s idea, as well.
In my opinion, a just law is something that is put in place for the benefit of all citizens. An unjust law is any law that oppresses, excludes, or hurts someone in the population.
Dawn
This is a very good question. I think the issue isn’t so much justice vs. compliance, but how justice is defined. It’s defined differently by every sort of entity, from the individual to the community to the religion to the status quo to the political climate to the media. It’s a malleable thing, far too easy to mold according to the latest fashion. What one person or group thinks of as justice is another person or group’s injustice. So I think the answer depends on whether there can be a universally agreed upon idea of justice or truth. I don’t think there can be.
An unjust law is something which denies a human his basic rights. A law which endangers his life, freedom,and safety. There are other laws also which if followed will certainly help us, but at the same time, violating these may not always have drastic consequences. For example, traffic rules. We tend to bend these sometimes for the sake of our convenience because we feel that its a small thing and it doesn’t hurt anyone.
When I look at the sky and see the bird flying, touching the clouds, dancing in the wind, I think of freedom.
When I look at certain nations where something cruel is done in the name of law, I think of freedom, or rather lack of it.
Is this the same freedom? yes, but the first is optional, the second is so often not, at least not to those who have to obey.
love
Agnieszka
If each human being only listened to the inner voice of love, peace and compassion, the perceived need for imposed external rules would dissipate. Rules are made by people who fear of loss of control. As you realize you only control yourself, your focus shifts and your energy vibration aligns differently.
Killing innocent people, invading land, pushing people off their properties, torturing a nation in the name of law…then that law is an unjust law.
An unjust law is the one who imprison us and cut our wings. Without. Without. Choice. Really. From the beginning of the beginning. It´s the one who wants to let us die. Instead of. Fly.
and by steal, its not just wealth. i would consider ideas, hope, spirit, freedom all stealable
unjust law is something which you use to steal from others which is not yours by right – it is driven by fear, greed, anger and loss of your humanity
The only law is that which comes from within…what is the use of law anyway?It is going to be broken finally….breaking of promise?
La subjetividad.
an unjust law is one which tries to discriminate between people on grounds of sex, age, race etc.
while a law which we just don’t want to comply with are mostly related to morale policing, laws which makes the common man feel inferior ! or in some cases laws which are cumbersome to comply with, like filing voluminous IT returns.
why is the significance of this ‘topic’ ?
love
aditya
Bom dia Paulo,
No caso destes personagens sempre houve a questão liberdade envolvida, mas ai ficamos com esta questão em aberto tambem, até onde pode se interferir na liberdade de um povo? Acredito que a resposta esteja na cultura deste povo! Uma lei só será injusta se ferir a cultura ou discriminar essas pessoas. Vide o caso da “lei seca” no Brasil que no começo me pareceu uma afronta, mas que com o passar do tempo notei que nao inteferia na minha vida de tal forma a mudar meus habitos.
abraços
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