Christian, a reader of this blog made a very interesting question: is suffering important for you to get some sort of enlightenment?
In my opinion it isn’t necessary. As a Catholic, the example of Jesus is quite telling: he traveled all his life, having dinners, meeting people and yet we remember him going though “passion” , nailed to the cross in the last days of his life.
The same applies to other avatars of humanity, such as Buddha: they were enjoying life. But for some reason the idea has gone round about suffering as a justification for us to go to heaven, or to sacrifice to others.
All my work is based in sharing the best of life and transmitting your happiness to others.
I would like then to hear your opinion on suffering and this attitude towards the spiritual path.
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Suffering is necessary. But it must be intentional. Don’t mix it with voluntary suffering. We have to suffer in order to help others, trying not to miss any opportunity.
To suffer for the benefit of others, this is called intentional suffering.
Sufferongs are the results of our wrong decisions .
I suspect we all must travel the path that is right for us. Some to suffer great, some less. Perhaps if we learn to listen very carefully, we can avoid or limit the depth at which the repeating lessons we are to learn must go to get through to us. And if we are completely honest with ourselves about what we are hearing. Perhaps in the end, suffering is not any different from non-suffering, it is all what is.
“No hay nada mas sagrado que el sufrimiento humano”.
_Fyodor Dostoevsky
“Nothing more sacred than human suffering.”
Dostoevsky knew what he was talking about pertaining human suffering.
Correction i am suffering because i don’t understand the
language of my Heart.
We are suffering because we don’t know the language
of our heart.
Your point of view does not necessarily apply to all…Of course,suffering is something we can do without but in the case of Dostoevsky…it was not his choice and yes,there is a gap of difference.
I am a little divided on this matter as I have experienced suffering in my life yet it did not always make me more conscious or kind. Sometimes it made me harder and more aggressive as I did not have the time for compassion or time to understand what was at hand in a deeper fashion giving me better insights on how to deal with what was going on in my life.
Enlightenment for me only became a desire of mine after I lost my husband and partner of 20 years. I wanted to understand “why life/ why death”? What lies behind life is my driver and through lifting and inspecting my soul and understanding Spirituality this allows me to inspect myself at a far deeper level and helps me gain insight at a far wider level.
I have also come to learn through loss that by enlightenment is not just about deeper self-awareness but helps me to become a kinder person to my fellow man understanding that we are all from the same Source.
But as I have become more self-aware I have realized that my purpose is not just to realize my own worth & happiness, but to ensure happiness of my fellow man too in order to ensure the continuance of my fellow man!
This would not have occurred had I not suffered this loss.Although I have also chosen find deeper answers, equally I may have decided to stay weeping and live in regret and sorrow…
So yes, I am unsure that we HAVE TO SUFFER, but suffering gives us deeper understanding if the suffering brought us compassion…
x
Hi Paulo
I was just listening to your link about ‘suffering’ and what do we think of it.
Well my question is ‘ how do you define suffering’?
Peace
Niloufar
As I read Paulo’s books, my mind strays to those who have no voice. In the United States alone, 35,000 cows are slaughtered each day so people may dine on flesh. We think of the suffering of people… why is it that people seeking their personal legend do not give up the consumption of flesh, and free others from suffering. Please don’t quote Genesis 1:30- Look to Genesis 1:29 instead….
Suffering is the epitome of self importance.
Suffering is only for people who indulge in pain.
Person who suffers usually takes everything either as a blessing or curse without realising that life is about challenges and challenges can not be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.
I think suffering isn’t a must but helps us to reach enlightenment. We should try to live the life and be happy but we shouldn’t fight with sufffering, it’s part of life. Any suffering has the reason, and beauty of life is beyond all it’s suffering and joy momemnts.
You do not have to “suffer” to grow spiritually. However, with Christ and his death in mind, it is important to REMEMBER His suffering because it represents love at the greatest. And how can you enjoy life if you do not love everyone, or atleast try to? You really can’t.
I think today, people tend to worry too much about little things, and remembering what Jesus went through can really downplay the minor issues and problems that we come across every day.
I think that when religion speaks of “suffering” it is referring to giving up things that we do not essentially need. I do not believe God expects us to go and die on a cross and suffer becaues He did. I believe though that he expects us to try and humanize ourselves and learn to put others ahead of ourselves. It seems that people make themselves “suffer” without meaningless items. For example, for many people, a week without television is a form of suffering. When the word “suffering” is used, I believe it is sacraficing things we do not need, and learning what is truly important: friends, family and knowledge.
I don’t know, I was kind of all over the place here with my thoughts because im short on time. But, hopefully I got some sort of message across. :P
As humans, we exist against all odds. In 1 ml of sperm there are a 100 million sperms and the average ejaculate is 5 ml. Out of that, only one sperm fertilizes our mother’s egg. In addition to that, as far as we can sensually perceive we are the masterpiece of biological nature. Is it any wonder we are gods unto ourselves?
We have a high capacity to enjoy life, and when we suffer it confuses us. We try to attach meaning to it that’s congenial to our ‘god’ status. Life has ups and downs, I guess it’s about finding as many ups as we can, and when we’re down we should use that as an opportunity to further increase our capacity to enjoy life.
i think that nobody can escape from sufferings,as nobody can escape from life. (added by Mobile using Mippin)
about jésus,when he was on the cross,do you remeber what he said about god just before to die,i think he showed us what we are,what our human condition is what is also our “perception” of god through the human suffering,does it mean that jésus understands also our difficulties to see the love of god,when we suffer. (added by Mobile using Mippin)
Hmmm…
Did suffering made me understand something I didn’t comprehend… or didn’t realize?
Yes.
Some people says that one doesn’t really knows what one has until he or she has lost it.
I believe there are somethings we can learn only through experience, being it painful or enjoyable if we are lucky.
Is like learning to walk i suppose… we learn to put one foot in front of the other so we avoid to keep falling. It might take its time, but at the end we learn how to do it. That depends on every person I think. Or better said, that is what I want to believe.
Paulo,
i think the meaning of suffering is over estimated. Pain physical or emotional (that people call suffering) is a part of signal system that has very practical purpose – to tell us there is something wrong with our body or soul. Taken this way it’s good and very important. If it didn’t work we would have destroyed ourselves very fast.
But I don’t like suffering turned into fetish. It is not more important than wholesome body and soul. And if you are healthy you don’t need it. If you are ill and got a signall quick, corrected your way and got well – you don’t need it any more.
Russian philosopher Nikolay Berdyaev said: “Golgotha was not meant to make an idol of suffering but to overcome death and suffering”.
Santosh – thanks it is inspirational, I had a friend that could only write with her feet, her handwriting was so beautiful. If they can do it,,,,,,,,,,
Love
Not everyone has the same idea of what suffering is.
In some ways is life building up something that prepares you for what is to come. For others is a trap they got caught and the pain makes them aware that is time to move…on.
Evolving is “suffering”! like a smal child whose teeth are growing and they cry. Like at the end of an igonizing idea you reach the final conclusion. I feel it is our choice to suffer, at some level, the achieve something. There is an autopilot though that keeps the expectation of agony always there…present. Well: Yes and No, whichever we accept for ourselves.
I consider myself to be a Christian but I’m a point in my life where I am questioning what is being taught. I read an article tonight about Jesus suffering. What saddens me is that the author of the article suggests that we too must suffer because if Christ did, so shall we.
I’m having a hard time trying to embrace suffering. It feels unnatural to deny yourself. It gives me a sense of not being true to myself. This Christian author writes about Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane suffering for the sake of obedience. Is suffering then accepting what lies ahead? I have always perceived that moment of Christ’s life to be one where he knew he had to continue forward even in the face of unavoidable threat.
Someone please enlighten me on suffering. If its necessary, why? When I have had to walk away from things or people I always thought it was for the better and so I suffered through it. I’m trying to figure it out, but something within me is crying out to embrace what I feel and not deny myself.
Help!
Life will bring us pain. But we can choose whether we want to suffer or not. Letting go is hard to do but holding on to pain is suffering. Love yourself and be true to who you are. Live to love, not fear or suffer.
Dear Paulo and Everyone,
This video describes how to live a life. If you ever think that you are not happy then think again …(why not)
Check this out-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MslbhDZoniY
Good day !
This discussion shouldn’t bother me but you know…
If you try and avoid suffering, or hate it, or choose not to except it, you’ll never reach enlightenment.
Change your suffering into the effort to live the life you love.
Not to satisfy the“others”.
If you can do this you’ll become an enlightened person.
Like the one from the poem:
La Croce
(Canto popolare Italiano)
Quando nacqui, mi disse una voce:
-Tu sei nato a portar la tua croce!
Io, piangendo la croce abbracciai
che dal cielo segnata mi fu;
poi guardai, guardai, guardai…
Tutti portan la croce quaggiù
Vidi un uomo
giulivo nel volto
in mantello di seta ravvolto
E gli dissi: A te solo o fratello
Questa vita è cosparsa di fior?
No rispose, ma aperse il mantello
La suo croce l’aveva
Nel cuor!
or another one from the sorcerer’s teaching:
The Path with Heart (The Teaching of Don Juan) by Carlos Castaneda
Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore you must always keep in mind that a path is only a path; if you feel you should not follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. To have such clarity you must lead a disciplined life. Only then will you know that any path is only a path and there is no affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you to do. But your decision to keep on the path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition. I warn you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary.
This question is one that only a very old man asks. Does this path have a heart? All paths are the same: they lead nowhere. They are paths going through the bush, or into the bush. In my own life I could say I have traversed long long paths, but I am not anywhere. Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn’t, it is of no use. Both paths lead nowhere; but one has a heart, the other doesn’t. One makes for a joyful journey; as long as you follow it, you are one with it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong; the other weakens you.
Before you embark on any path ask the question: Does this path have a heart? If the answer is no, you will know it, and then you must choose another path. The trouble is nobody asks the question; and when a man finally realizes that he has taken a path without a heart, the path is ready to kill him. At that point very few men can stop to deliberate, and leave the path. A path without a heart is never enjoyable. You have to work hard even to take it. On the other hand, a path with heart is easy; it does not make you work at liking it.
I have told you that to choose a path you must be free from fear and ambition. The desire to learn is not ambition. It is our lot as men to want to know.
The path without a heart will turn against men and destroy them. It does not take much to die, and to seek death is to seek nothing.
For me there is only the traveling on the paths that have a heart, on any path that may have a heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge for me is to traverse its full length. And there I travel-looking, looking, breathlessly.
Conclusion:
Suffering is not a way. The good use of personal energy is joy. Joy of life belongs to enlightened people (the Lovers of the Real).
Becasue the truth is cruel, but it can be loved, and it makes free those who have loved it.
I’m sorry, my English isn’t very good. I just hope you understand what I mean :)
Life has both suffering and joy. But it’s that pain which shows you how to apreciate what really matters. By my own experience, I know that the most simple things are, usually, the ones that fill us with happiness. Pain makes us value all the good things in life. My mother’s illness and her death was the most devastating thing I’ve lived, and besides that, it was the most developing one.
In those limited situations, it’s our decision to give the best of ourselves or just pass it by as soon as possible. You decide how deep you get in what life’s got planned for you.
I personally believe that we’re here to learn, to be better human beings and that’s why our acts have to be done from generousity, without expecting anything back for it. If you do what’s right, if you give your hundred per cent, it’ll be worth, it’ll be enough for you. You’ll be satisfied.
The same in Spanish :)
La vida conlleva tanto sufrimiento como alegría. Pero es precisamente el sufrimiento el que te enseña a apreciar lo que realmente importa. Por mi propia experiencia sé que lo más sencillo es, habitualmente, lo que nos llena de felicidad. El dolor nos hace valorar las cosas buenas que hay en la vida. La enfermedad de mi madre y su muerte ha sido la experiencia más devastadora que he vivido y, a pesar de ello, es lo que más ha enriquecido mi espíritu.
En situaciones límite, es nuestra decisión dar lo mejor de nosotros o, simplemente, pasar por ello lo antes posible. Cada uno decide en qué medida se implica con lo que la vida de ofrece.
Personalmente creo que estamos aquí para aprender, para mejorar como seres humanos, por eso nuestros actos deben hacerse desde la generosidad, sin esperar nada a cambio. Si haces lo que es correcto, si das el cien por cien de ti, habrá merecido la pena. Será suficiente para ti, estarás satisfecho.
Lots of love,
Violeta
Buddha says, “Life is suffering.” A person can choose to adopt a similar view because someone else advised it or, a person can choose to experience life and evolve to discern the truth. Suffering permits indivduals to learn to stop identifying with external things. It urges you to explore deeper sides of yourself. If you believe that suffering is triggered when you identify with form, then you also begin to understand that suffering begins to dissolve when you acknowledge it and choose to work through it. Eckhart Tolle tells that, “suffering has a noble purpose: the evolution of consciousness and the buring up of ego.” To read this and to experience it teach you different levels of awareness.
Dearest Paulo,
Your work has taught me so much, thank you!
I personally do not belive that suffering is necessary to become enlightened or to have experiences of enlightenment. There are many people who have become enlightened through moments of immense gratitude for life, or through moments of happiness. However, I do believe that moments of suffering, and the many trials and difficulties that people face throughout their lives do bring them closer to enlightenment. I belive that suffering can act as the initial push towards enlightenment, however is not necessary for it.
My best wishes,
Atifa
I think that it’s very important for understanding. If you don’t feel it in this way ( meaning suffering, sometimes right, and sometimes thinking that you are punished and you have to suffer without knowing why ), so, if you don’t feel like all these, you can’t understand what happens ( to you and the ones you love ).
But, if you are opened to the signs, you will know that it’s only a shorter way of understanding, especially for the good things of life.
I mean that you cannot appreciate the good things in life before you have the knowledge of suffering.
With all my love,
Petra
I believe that suffering is a very real concept that has and always will exist. I think that the examples of suffering differ from person to person. I don’t suffer in the same way my neighbors suffer. Suffering is unique to the individual because it can occur in every realm of humanity. We can suffer physically, emotionally or mentally. Each of these can be equally painful. Consider first, the emotional anguish over the death of a family member. Then consider the physical stomach pains caused by starvation. And finally sinking into a deep depression.
Suffering exists. Because of its existence, I don’t think we will ever know if it is essential for some sort of spiritual enlightenment or if spiritual enlightenment can come about without it. What I do believe is that suffering is a tool which can link us as an individual with the rest of humanity. Everyone suffers. Why not use one’s own suffering to help others in their pain? I know that for me, using the knowledge gained by my suffering has helped me to justify its existence in my life. I believe that everything happens for a reason. If I can use my own pain to lessen the pain for others, my suffering has meaning.
I think souffering happens when one oposes to the challenge or transformation he might face in a certain moment in his life.
When one has to metamorphose into something else, then comes the fear for change and for the new, and fear paralises your soul and body, so that when actually you shoud be flexible and let the change and transformation to invadate and posses you entirely, you block this action and fight with it. The result is: PAIN.
Moments in life don’t come just like that. We call them somehow and these moments of challenge and transformation and yes, pain and souffering, are in fact the messengers that tells you:”Do not opose us, let us do your work on Earth, this is how we help you, and perhaps is how we cand make you understand that you must evoluate”.
It is like in training animals for circus: they need both jussy meet bools and painfull whips to understand they must do this or that. If they would be more intelligent, such methids won’t be necessary or the animals wont even let them be cached by hunters in the first place….
So everyone of us has his own level and limits in understanding his own development needs, and while some of us understands only through painfull methods, others understand other way. Personally, I have challenged both ways, in equal quantities. Yes, pain is horrific and unfair, as sometimes is not our fault, is our parents fault or our antourage fault or something we are part of…For ex.,people from my country, while it was comunistic, simply run away over the borders and saved their own and their families. Now they are some of the most happy and succesfull members of my country. Why my parents didn’t have the guts to do the same thing for me and my sister? Why were so afraid of such challenge? While all countries in Western Europe have offered asilum to immigrants in need? Why did the choose to educate their kids within such a tough and impossible system and others simply left the system and came back after 1989 when system was destroied?…Why had I live the life they had choosen for me?
Well, I had the chanse to do this my self.But it was a little bit too late.
And this is just an example. We simply choose what to happen to us. Period.
I don’t like suffering.
I hate it, but I know that everything in this world has two sides: a bright an da dark one.
So I think suffering is the dark side of knowing.
Most of times knowing or learning lead us to suffering, but we walk this path, all the same
have a nice day
Paulo, não se esqueça de escrever sobre o fórum de Davos!
Voce afinal compartilhou so nossos pensamentos com alguém lá?
Abraços grandes!
My experience is that emotional hardship and challenges over a number of years have been necessary for my enlightenment. Experiences which have caused emotional turmoil has given me valuable insight and capability of understanding myself and others. My experiences have also led me to very intense prayers, which have led me to enlightenment – a knowledge deeper and more fundamental than any science ever could give me.
There are so many ways to look at suffering.
In my heart…Jezus’ largest suffering was the knowledgde of his personal legend. Yes he had friends, yes he enjoyed himself also. But deep down he must have had ( ?? ) the constant companion of lonelynes about what he had to indure and do without, to fulfill his purpose.
The book : The last of the Just, by Andre Schwarz-Bart talks about this kind of suffering also. And the part where he writes that sometimes ..when a just one dies, this just one has gotten so frozenly cold by that time, that only God’s very own hands..can warm him up again. And the reason that he had gone so cold…was to keep others warmer.
And as Job suffered. Perhaps the largest of all…was when his friends came to look him up and questioned him after he had allready lost everything.
Suffering itself is painful. And sometimes we go through it to find our own questions and purpose. To get stronger or learn forgiveness about what the world teaches us not to forgive.
Mark Chagall’s painting of the white crucifixion showes us that suffering is in our midst. And it belongs in our midst..because it only means : ” to know ” while your hands can be tied. ” To care ” and pray because your hands can be tied.
Mercy ..if not from us…then from God. And these days where we don’t have a personified just one..or Godlike image that walks the earth to ask our questions to, Or can reach out to touch the seam of a clocke. It is hard to find wisdom and believe. Hope and healing.
Sometimes…miracles are what we need. And sometimes that is the only answer to a prayer.
Suffering is in our midst. And we should give it it’s rightful place and care. As much as we would like to and want to..not all is always in our hands or even minds.
Jennifer
Nice question, although I am not sure what to think about it.
I believe for myself, that you suffer when and how much you want, suffering at a point is a choice we make.
I think that each individual can look at it as a way to enlightenment if we want to see it like that.
There were times when I was suffering, either physical pain or heart ache due to a lost love or whatever…..
When pain and suffering first hits us is something we cannot control because it phisically hurts. But after a while when we know it is there it is up to us to keep the pain there or to get rid of it.
How? By thinking the positive side of the whole thing, by trying to smile and focusing on how difficult it is, and suddenly you find yourself smiling… and you even forget why you were trying.
If we focus on how much it hurts and on the suffering we might risk to get stuck there and there will be no enlightment…
…but…. if we try to get out of there or let it “heal” and we learn from it…. isn’t it enlightment?
“A pipoca, milho mirrado, grãos redondos e duros, me pareceu uma simples molecagem, brincadeira deliciosa, sem dimensões metafísicas ou psicanalíticas. Entretanto, dias atrás, conversando com uma paciente, ela mencionou a pipoca. E algo inesperado na minha mente aconteceu. Minhas idéias começaram a estourar como pipoca. Percebi, então, a relação metafórica entre a pipoca e o ato de pensar. Um bom pensamento nasce como uma pipoca que estoura, de forma inesperada e imprevisível.
Lembrei-me do sentido religioso da pipoca. A pipoca tem sentido religioso? Pois tem.
Para os cristãos, religiosos são o pão e o vinho, que simbolizam o corpo e o sangue de Cristo, a mistura de vida e alegria (porque vida, só vida, sem alegria, não é vida…). Pão e vinho devem ser bebidos juntos. Vida e alegria devem existir juntas.
Lembrei-me, então, de lição que aprendi com a Mãe Stella, sábia poderosa do Candomblé baiano: que a pipoca é a comida sagrada do Candomblé…
A pipoca é um milho mirrado, subdesenvolvido.
Fosse eu agricultor ignorante, e se no meio dos meus milhos graúdos aparecessem aquelas espigas nanicas, eu ficaria bravo e trataria de me livrar delas. Pois o fato é que, sob o ponto de vista de tamanho, os milhos da pipoca não podem competir com os milhos normais. Não sei como isso aconteceu, mas o fato é que houve alguém que teve a idéia de debulhar as espigas e colocá-las numa panela sobre o fogo, esperando que assim os grãos amolecessem e pudessem ser comidos.
Havendo fracassado a experiência com água, tentou a gordura. O que aconteceu, ninguém jamais poderia ter imaginado.
Repentinamente os grãos começaram a estourar, saltavam da panela com uma enorme barulheira. Mas o extraordinário era o que acontecia com eles: os grãos duros quebra-dentes se transformavam em flores brancas e macias que até as crianças podiam comer. O estouro das pipocas se transformou, então, de uma simples operação culinária, em uma festa, brincadeira, molecagem, para os risos de todos, especialmente as crianças. É muito divertido ver o estouro das pipocas!
E o que é que isso tem a ver com o Candomblé? É que a transformação do milho duro em pipoca macia é símbolo da grande transformação porque devem passar os homens para que eles venham a ser o que devem ser. O milho da pipoca não é o que deve ser. Ele deve ser aquilo que acontece depois do estouro. O milho da pipoca somos nós: duros, quebra-dentes, impróprios para comer, pelo poder do fogo podemos, repentinamente, nos transformar em outra coisa — voltar a ser crianças! Mas a transformação só acontece pelo poder do fogo.
Milho de pipoca que não passa pelo fogo continua a ser milho de pipoca, para sempre.
Assim acontece com a gente. As grandes transformações acontecem quando passamos pelo fogo. Quem não passa pelo fogo fica do mesmo jeito, a vida inteira. São pessoas de uma mesmice e dureza assombrosa. Só que elas não percebem. Acham que o seu jeito de ser é o melhor jeito de ser.
Mas, de repente, vem o fogo. O fogo é quando a vida nos lança numa situação que nunca imaginamos. Dor. Pode ser fogo de fora: perder um amor, perder um filho, ficar doente, perder um emprego, ficar pobre. Pode ser fogo de dentro. Pânico, medo, ansiedade, depressão — sofrimentos cujas causas ignoramos.Há sempre o recurso aos remédios. Apagar o fogo. Sem fogo o sofrimento diminui. E com isso a possibilidade da grande transformação.
Imagino que a pobre pipoca, fechada dentro da panela, lá dentro ficando cada vez mais quente, pense que sua hora chegou: vai morrer. De dentro de sua casca dura, fechada em si mesma, ela não pode imaginar destino diferente. Não pode imaginar a transformação que está sendo preparada. A pipoca não imagina aquilo de que ela é capaz. Aí, sem aviso prévio, pelo poder do fogo, a grande transformação acontece: PUF!! — e ela aparece como outra coisa, completamente diferente, que ela mesma nunca havia sonhado. É a lagarta rastejante e feia que surge do casulo como borboleta voante.
Na simbologia cristã o milagre do milho de pipoca está representado pela morte e ressurreição de Cristo: a ressurreição é o estouro do milho de pipoca. É preciso deixar de ser de um jeito para ser de outro.
“Morre e transforma-te!” — dizia Goethe.
Em Minas, todo mundo sabe o que é piruá. Falando sobre os piruás com os paulistas, descobri que eles ignoram o que seja. Alguns, inclusive, acharam que era gozação minha, que piruá é palavra inexistente. Cheguei a ser forçado a me valer do Aurélio para confirmar o meu conhecimento da língua. Piruá é o milho de pipoca que se recusa a estourar.
Meu amigo William, extraordinário professor pesquisador da Unicamp, especializou-se em milhos, e desvendou cientificamente o assombro do estouro da pipoca. Com certeza ele tem uma explicação científica para os piruás. Mas, no mundo da poesia, as explicações científicas não valem.
Por exemplo: em Minas “piruá” é o nome que se dá às mulheres que não conseguiram casar. Minha prima, passada dos quarenta, lamentava: “Fiquei piruá!” Mas acho que o poder metafórico dos piruás é maior.
Piruás são aquelas pessoas que, por mais que o fogo esquente, se recusam a mudar. Elas acham que não pode existir coisa mais maravilhosa do que o jeito delas serem.
Ignoram o dito de Jesus: “Quem preservar a sua vida perdê-la-á”.A sua presunção e o seu medo são a dura casca do milho que não estoura. O destino delas é triste. Vão ficar duras a vida inteira. Não vão se transformar na flor branca macia. Não vão dar alegria para ninguém. Terminado o estouro alegre da pipoca, no fundo a panela ficam os piruás que não servem para nada. Seu destino é o lixo.
Quanto às pipocas que estouraram, são adultos que voltaram a ser crianças e que sabem que a vida é uma grande brincadeira…”
Rubem Alves
“La perola e el combate del’ostra”
Actually I am not sure if suffering is part of the spiritual path or a necessary step towards enlightenment.
But personally, I think that suffering is part of living and is necessary. People always long for happiness; and my definition of happiness would be freedom from doing things that I do not like to do, lots of enjoyment and so forth. But I also realized that when these things happen and stay for too long, I start to think whether I am still considering myself being happy or suffering from boredom. That is when I want a change and start enjoying the hard work, of breaking the ‘mandate enjoyment’…
To me, we are always moving between suffering and non-suffering in order to appreciate live; it is equally suffering at the switching point of the 2 ends.
Suffering is not important to get enlightenment.
Suffering is sign that we have reached the highest point of our momentary illusion. The highest because we insist that our will must regulate our life as well as the world around us. Any time we experience suffering it warns us we are driving wrong direction. Because to live the life the moderate effort is needed not suffering.
Enlightenment is moment of achievement, the sign that we have abandoned our foolishness (darkness, absence of knowledge,our dwelling in the world of unreality, equipped with the wrong standards about the difference of bad and good, bad use of personal energy). To live a life of fool in the world of Real means to be befogged by the darkness (caused by the fog of the own wrong thought’s constructions about our world and wrong behaviour we perform upon them on the everyday’s paths of our life).
bhe-bhe made a very point: “As long as we refuse/resist, the more we suffer.” I have MS and have varying degrees of physical pain every day When I focus upon, or resist/ to refuse it, I experience it as ‘suffering.” but when I’m not thinking about it, though I still aware of it, I’m don’t experience it as suffering, no matter the degree. I hope this makes sense.
Suffering means to me that i am not consequent in this live
and that i don’t take the responsibility too
It’s easy to made complains without doing something that’s the way
we suffer.
Maktub
According to Buddhism, life is suffering. And the purpose of life is to repay our bad karma from previous lives. Because Buddhism believes in reincarnation, the karma that we have are accumulation from many lifetimes. When you have a lot of bad karma, you will be suffering more, on the other hand, if you have a lot of good karma, you will live a better life. What comes around, goes around.
Actually, life itself, having this human body itself is actually suffering. In the eyes of Gods, Buddhas, or other higher beings, having a human body is suffering. We can’t withstand hunger, coldness, hotness, illnesses, emotions, feelings, etc. It’s just that we think and feel that this is normal, since as soon as we are born, we are already this way.
In Buddhism, suffering is to repay the bad karma that we owe in previous life. To gain, one must lose. Through suffering, which refers not only to physical suffering, we learn and are enlightened along the way. It’s not possible to grow without pain. If you haven’t noticed, every time we’ve encountered troubles in our life, when its over, we usually come to understand some things about life, which in the end we passed down to our children, friends, etc. Isn’t that also a form of enlightenment?
I am reading the alchemist…It seems that this one also emphasises on surfing a lot … The boy surfs through the deserts and through various omens of the life…
Initially I thought that the post imphasized on net surfing … but after reading the post about Buddha and lot more I am satisfied that surfing is not just confined to it…
Hi Paulo and Everyone,
This is a very good question and points directly at very many things. It hints at how fundamental teachings have been used by organised “religion” for purposes perhaps of control and politics. I think by default people want to see only the less comfortable side of things; the cynicism of adults rather than the awe and wonder of a child.
At the moment I am wondering extensively about the middle way. The story of Buddha is interesting in than in his early years he was closeted away in a palace with all the material trappings of royalty. He saw “suffering” and then tried the harsh life of the ascetic; these representing two polarities of physical plane existence. He then taught the middle way.
Suffering is in effect brought about by how we perceive the world. It is an aspect of mind. The teachings of the East are about overcoming this and little emphasis is made to the richness of life. In a sense the emphasis in those propagating the wisdom is towards leaving the wheel of rebirth by achieving Nirvana, as if life was something worth escaping from.
I think for most of us en-lighten-meant is probably not going to happen this time around. Rather life is about en-lighten-ing. Life is not a burden it is a joy. Yet sometimes we need to see difficult times to fully appreciate the good. I call this the dynamic range of life. If life was only “good” we might soon get bored. A full dynamic range touches all the potential of being-ness. If enlightenment is a goal we have perhaps missed the perspective “it is better to travel than to arrive”, for in looking at the journey along the way we do not miss all the wonder. Goal orientation and desire are two aspects of this and thus we see only the end and not the means.
In the West Christ taught the path of heart and of love. He did not teach self flagellation and misery. He taught inclusiveness and not separation. Sacrifice is not what it is usually understood to mean. Its roots are to make holy; sacre ficio. One aspect of making holy is to “celebrate” the glorious gift which is life in all its manifestation.
Life is not a black and white film it is Technicolour. Isn’t that great?
So if I “sacrifice” myself to make someone else’s life better. I am probably just being “holier than thou” saying “look at me, aren’t I good?” I went through a period in life where I was a vegan. My how holy I was, how I “suffered” and I made sure that I made everyone’s life around me a misery with my pain in the ass evangelism. It didn’t make me happy. What a glorious victim…..It is this sense of victim hood that makes us feel “suffering”. The funny thing is we have the capacity to see the positive in every single event should we but choose.
In the journey of life we will all come across times of difficulty and this in necessary for in facing our challenges we evolve. It is the matter of the physical plane that allows this friction to take place. Deep learning comes through real life friction and not intellectual understanding. So rather than seeing these challenges as burdens or “suffering”, they are gifts and they are meant for us to learn by. “Suffering” is not a de facto requirement for evolution. Some of us have been pretty damn stubborn and gone through some pretty wild and uncomfortable times. There is not a need for everyone to be so daft. I guess the choice of path is down to predilection.
The Buddha had direct personal experience of the way of the ascetic and maybe we should trust the words of someone who has done that. It is the wrong path.
Life is a gift and this Shaker hymn speaks volumes for me:
‘Tis the gift to be simple, ’tis the gift to be free,
‘Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
‘Twill be in the valley of love and delight.
When true simplicity is gain’d,
To bow and to bend we shan’t be asham’d,
To turn, turn will be our delight,
Till by turning, turning we come round right.
Christ’s last act was not an act of “suffering”. It was an act of true unconditional LOVE. Most people cannot see beyond the nails to the love behind his actions. He did teach the light side of life. He also taught about standing up for values and this can be struggle.
We need both heart and mind; West and East.
There is a saying “Where the thought goes, energy flows”. We create our own reality and in spreading light and love the world is a better place. There are still challenges.
Better to face them in the warm light of companionship rather than the darkness of “suffering”.
This quotation from The Tempest by Shakespeare speaks of the transitory nature of our sojourn here.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air;
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloudd-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.
So for me at least life is a journey of some considerable poignancy in which I laugh and I cry. But I do evolve and there is now more light in my life than when I chose to see it otherwise.
The funny thing is; it was always there.
With all my very best wishes,
Alan
in some point of life, i consider suffering as a free will, it is a form of love offering. we suffer becasue we choose to love. in my own understanding, there are times when we are oblige to make sacrifices for our love ones, because we want to help, because we love. everytime we tend to make decisions, we carefully analyze what are the possible implications of such decisions, we are able to project the consequences. Most of the times, we make decisions, or rather we choose, which would be beneficial to as many as possible. as long as it will serve many, then there our choice will be. We tend to neglect it’s impact on our self because we care too much for others than our own feelings and later unexpectedly, regrets will be arise and leads to suffering. sacrifice and/or suffering can only be regarded as difficulty when we take it selfishly and enviously, when we consider it a disgrace not a blessing, when we mark it as pain.I believe, acceptance is the best way to relieve suffering. As long as we refuse/resist, the more we suffer. we end suffering & gain enlightenment everytime we open our hearts, our thoughts & ourselves to reality & truth, when we lower our pride & be humbled by our mistakes. when we learn to forgive & decide to live on.
I believe in the end there is no reward for suffering. Enlightment comes when this is realized. Suffering appears in many forms. For some don’t even know they suffer. Poverty, war, and illness this is how it’s always been. It’s about the choices we make in this life. Know that you are greater than suffering, love yourself to know that you deserve heaven here…*
Creo que asi como la muerte es ineludible, el sufrimiento es inevitable, es parte de aquello que nos va moldeando para llegar a ser la persona final que logramos ser, nos descubre nuestra humanidad… es un ingrediente de la vida, como el placer, la lucha por “ser feliz” la determinacion de ser, es parte integral del ser humano, imposible de evadir.
Creo que puede ayudar al proceso de lograr la “iluminacion” segun la actitud con que se viva, la apertura y capacidad de aprender de todo aquello que vivimos algo mas de lo que estamos hechos y de encontrar en todo ello el sentido.
I suspect that it is wisdom, maybe a sense of enlightenment, to understand that there is difficulty in life but suffering is a choice.
I have learned to embrace difficulty and thereby grow in my relationship to my God for in surrender to the Spiritual Reality that presides over my life do I find provision for all things, even pain, loss of job, death of loved ones, death of reltionships, and so on and so forth.
I find suffering when I stake an ego claim on one thing or another and experience loss on that level, that somehow it involves degrees of value for me to which I am attached. It is that attachment that brings about suffereing.
It would be glib to minimize the loss of a loved one through death yet I have found that those tears of grief do water the soul as I release my attachment to the one who has passed and allow them their journey.
Someone said if people were to be born again, they would call it dying.
For the pain my body feels, I seek to endure through my experience of God in that moment, not where I am but in the Spirit, in a word of meditation, in whatever spiritual practice one finds working to get though the other side of difficulty.
That, I think, is the teaching experience that leads to wisdom and enlightenment, not suffering.
I’ve found that the quotient of suffering is a component of self-obsession. The more I am suffering, the more I am thinking of my self. The more I seek to deal constructively with difficulty, and only difficulty, I am reaching for spiritual practices with which to engage God in God’s provision.
Let me turn the question around a bit. In joy is it easy to find God? When we have enough, do we know God’s hand? I think that is a deeper mastery, to sustain a spirituality and sense of God when we have chosen Joy in the moment, used Hope as a quality of energy, live in Trust of God and Believe.
In that place there is no suffering but there sure may be continued difficulty. That is the adventure.
also
Understanding doom
http://www.holyspiritsworkshop.com/?p=323
Love & harmony ;)
God is pleasure.
http://www.holyspiritsworkshop.com/?p=316
In Truth ;)
A little bit of suffering goes a long in helping to better appreciate the good things in life, and acts as a ‘bonding’ agent in relationships people have with one another and with their religious beliefs.
How can anyone achieve enlightenment without knowing suffering? No man is really living not having that part of the human experience. That half of wisdom would be lost without suffering. Looking at death in any form is wonderful insight.
I’m baffled by this question and don’t know where to start. Maybe this will help… If you take a look at many great artists you’ll see that their greatest tragedies brought them their greatest work. Few things stir the soul so much.
You see, I think I feel the same way as you. Some of my friends says, “unless you were punished, you wont know how important it is.”; “unless you fail to love, you won’t know what true love is.”; “unless you suffer, you won’t know why it is.” So they kept on failing relationships, having this as their defence mechanism. I believe that we don’t have to suffer to have this enlightment or learning. For me, we experience suffering not because it will bring us a good end, or maybe a good story. We suffer because we need to learn something, “God wants us to learn the things we didn’t knew back then which caused us to fail”. Me myself regret this fact. I regret that I would have to go through a lot of things, to know deeper. Unlike my friend, whom in despite her innocent heart, learned the right ideas. She even asked me, “I’m scared, why do I not suffer like the others do? Why would God not give me harder challenges? Did God knew that I can’t handle it? I answered, “Yes, there are things you can’t handle or at lest not now. But there is one thing you have to see. These people kept on failing because they didn’t know what to do or rather, they keep on not doing what they have to do. Unlike you, you learned from the sufferings of those that surrounds you. You learned what to do earlier and was determined to do it. It means that you were done learning those things and you know how to handle them.
“So, I guess we don’t have to suffer to be enlightened or to have new strenght. We only have to learn earlier to not fail later. Anyway, God knows when He needs to teach us so we have to keep an open heart in those trials. Unfair? well no, because many people fail, yes they won’t teach us what they’ve learned but we ought to learn by example and realize this by ourselves. That’s why there is a history subject right? o_O
From Harold, Palawan, Philippines.
You just contradicted your statement that we don’t have to go through suffering to find enlightenment by saying that sufferings teaches us what we need to learn. Technically, those lessons brought by suffering gave you the lesson and understanding you needed so that when a similar situation arises, you wouldn’t go through the same pain you did cos you learned how to handle or maneuver around it. Those lessons are the state of enlightenment of life.
But i guess sufferings and happiness itself, as well as their relationship are subjective. And your friend is really lucky to say she hasn’t been through any suffering. It’s not because God thinks she’s too weak to handle any but maybe she’s just too strong to consider anything a suffering. :)
Well, honestly i’ve got to admit, that i HAVE BEEN thinking suffering is necessary for us, so we could learn our lesson.
This has actually been my experience. Did you hear about: The world is a comedy for the one that thinks and a drama for the one that feels?
Looking back now, i can see, that i have been suffering, because i thought i had to and because i wasn’t able to comprehend desilusion and i couldn’t understand why people i loved, had to leave…
Now that i am using my brain, i understand – that if i had startet to think about zusammenhänge earlier and if i had startet to believe in myself earlier, it may have been easier.
My little cousin for example learned much faster and is much more balanced. I don’t know if this is because she got an absolutely non-authority education or because she is the smallest of our family. Many things could be important, especially experiences you lived during your childhood.
But anyway: would i be where i am now, if i didn’t get through what i have gone? I am not really sure if i wanted to… . In fact i would only just change ONE thing: i would set my priorities on people, who really love me – earlier.
Good Night :)
Suffering is inevitable in Humanity. Each one of us passes through sufferings. Like Jesus, when he died for us he suffered so that each would be save. Suffering is needed at times, so that we may feel God’s presence (most of the time, during our joyful moments we tend to forget our creator) Suffering also helps us to better persons because trials makes us stronger.
suffering can be compared to a bitter medicine, although it doesnt taste good yet our body needs it, to be healed.. thus Suffering heals our broken souls, makes our faith stronger and makes us remember the value and importance of our relationship with our Creator..
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