Sometimes religions can be very dumb. It is the case of my religion – The Catholic Church. In Brazil, we had this case of a young girl who got pregnant and the priest said – no abortion. Why? Because the canons of the Church – without considering the circumstances – denies abortion. So, I would like to know from you when we need to break the rules. Also, if you could elaborate and give me a list of the times when you broke the rules, I would appreciate.
When do we need to break the rules?
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I write this for the women who have had abortion.
Please don’t see it as killing a life. A child of God has to be conceived from love. love must have been lacking for anyone who got an abortion.
God is forgiving.
Who Really knows when the ‘soul is inhaled’ someone said 40 days after conception. What if it occurs even before conception?
Although, having been in the Hollywood scene, I have heard a female say to me that she has gotten abortions times and times over again. Like it was a birth control pill. I think this is Completely wrong.
Most everything is relative I think!
The church, for God’s sake, if they are so concerned, why are they not intervening in the wars, where so many people are dying. Where is the logic here??
I definitely think one must break some rules in order to be happy and satisfied with who you are and what you want in life. for instance, I think ones marry with the idea that “it will be forever” but I couldn’t be married(because divorce is not allowed according to religions)with some guy who has turned out been a total good for nothing, disrespectful, or something like that.
I broke the rules, about 3 years ago, dating a man who was twice my age, my family totally disagreed with it, cause he had been married, he has kids and even grandchildren, but he really made me feel very comfortable and loved, we liked being together, talk and enjoy ourselves.
Mr. Coelho:
Rules are guidelines made up by humans. Humans – who are made to be imperfect. We are all fallable. Only one true perfect person walked Mother Earth and the examples of how He lived His life shows that rules were meant to be broken.
Rules are created by communities, societies, organizations, governments, religion, family, cultural ancestry. Rules, like humans, are not meant to be stagnant. To obey all rules would be to not live.
You asked when do we need to break the rules. At times it would seem daily. Break the rule of silence; break the rules of tradition; break the rules that cause harm; break the rules that enslave others; the list can go on and on.
I have broken many “rules” in my life, too many to count. Many stemming from cultural tradition, but also those made from government, society and religion. The need to break these rules is when the rule becomes a constraint or prison from me living the life that God intended me to have — not the life that government, society, family, friends or culture think I should have.
Ms. Rossana Curri explains it eloquently. The fall from grace is a personal journey and only God in His infinite mercy, love and grace saves us. God gave us free will when Eve and Adam ate from the forbidden tree. Our choices are our own. Rules restrict free will and choice/consequence/forgiveness/grace.
Each of us have our own personal journey that God intended. What has happened to this young Brazilian woman was interference in her own personal journey with God by humans. They mandated their own decisions/rules onto another life. Only God has the right to that power.
As so poignantly put by William Healey’s post:
“I look for guidance from the source “word” behind the Catholic religion – the Bible (Old and New Covenants). Was there anyone more “notorious” (shall we say) for breaking the “rules” of the “church” of His day than Yeshua/Jesus? Healing the sick on the Sabbath? Pardoning the adulteress? Drinking from the well of a Samaritan? Breaking bread with tax collectors and lepers? He did it all. Why? To demonstrate to all of us that our duties as children of God and parts of the Body of Christ are sometimes more important than the rules of Man (even those claiming to be learned, even inspired, interpretations of the Law). So, in the end I answer the question thusly: We must break the rules (of the church) when those rules interfere with the explicit teachings of our Lord or with His most important commission for us: to love the Lord our God and to show sacrificial love toward our brothers and sisters as He did us.”
I have broken many rules i suppose.
But not out of spite or to my benefit. Breaking certain rules usually doesn’t have a real “upper or winner side”. At least not for me. I don’t break them cos i get something out of it. No one should. It is a choice between bad and lesser bad most of the time in these things.
As religions create many rules, different from the next religions’ rules – i do my best to follow my religion. And even here i must say, i hate calling it religion. God – yes. Church as i have seen it act -no.
I know i am not evil. And i do think i simply reach and get anything i want from my life. I believe, live and keep going (this is not the same as hurting other people around me or being a selfish brat! This is doing what i can to achieve my dreams) and yes, i am feeling more content by each step. Even with the pains one must endure during this trip of life. I dont justify things with what i’ve heard or thought, or even worse, what someone else tells me to think or do. I rather live a bit more listening to my heart. It hasnt been wrong so far. I found out pretty young that judgement only makes it harder on the one who judges, cos it can be a pretty though job – i leave that up to someone else. If i should ever do something i really feel i have been wrong about, i clear it with myself and forgive myself, as will God, who knows my weaknesses and flaws and loves them, as i have to love the weaknesses of the ones close to me, cos it is a part of them – even if it may anger me sometimes for awhile.
We need to break the rules when we cant really make a right choice. There is no true Right that could possibly apply to such a variety of different type of people that we are on this planet. To hurt someone, like this child, with the power you have over them, because of rules.. it cant be Right. (added by Mobile using Mippin)
Question vraiment difficile !
Faire le point sur soi en regardant objectivement la part de notre éducation, la part du monde judéo-chrétien dans lequel nous vivons et prendre un chemin pour oser être soi-même…
J’ai lu tous les commentaires où chacun apporte sa vérité. A dire vrai, je ne sais pas comment répondre à cette question. Peut-être que je me trompe dans mon ressenti ?
Oh, and by the way … In weighing the evils of “rules” that result in suffering versus the evils of individuals choosing to break those rules, let us not forget one critical point: The greatest deception of the Enemy, the place where we are most vulnerable to loneliness and hopelessness is where there are NO boundaries to human behaviour, NO “rules” at all – where each individual carves his/her own path toward the dreamy oasis of “life, liberty and happiness” – only to realize too late that water is brackish and foul.
We see this every day here in England and hear the screams on the TV and radio news reports: Here, the poisonous combination of a) fierce individual resistance to being told what to do (much less disciplined) by ANYone and b) long-standing governmental incentives and safety-nets for reckless, selfish and ill-judged behaviour have bred a generation who refuses to acknowledge responsibility for their own decisions but rather screams that “the Government should do more to help” after the fact. Here, we have among the highest rates of teenage and single-parent pregnancies, the highest rates of sexually-transmitted diseases, among the lowest rates of kids achieving basic educational qualifications, among the highest burdens of social subsidies, among the highest rates of drug and alcohol addictions, and yes – among the highest rates of abortion – yet, also among the highest rates of unfilled demand for adoptions into loving-yet-childless homes.
Surely, the absence of any rules or boundaries for human behaviour – as flawed as they may be – is a Hell in itself and a place of greatest suffering and despair.
Some rules I’ve broke knowing that I was breaking them, a few ones I’ve broke without actually knowing that I was breaking any rules.
It also depends at where You are (geographically). At some places one things is forbidden, at one place it’s okay to do/think something. The societys are different, leaving different rules, which we can go on breaking.
Sometimes we can choose to break a rule for the sake of either You, someone else or something. Breaking the rule sometimes can be a benefit, even if not all agree on it (by all I mean society). Sometimes breaking the rules is needed in personal lives – it may be wrong but maybe we need to do it to grow, or become a whole person.
My breaking of the rules are probably both on concious and also unconcious ways. Some I remember vividly, others I can’t remember anymore – we tend to forget. The recent violation of rules – I took a bird who actually can’t be held in where I live at in the city I’m in right now. But it is a birthday present for me, so I am keeping it until I go to my childhood home, where I will rejoin it with another bird that I already have. They’re both lovebirds. :) Silly, but true.
My unconcious breaking of the rules was when I was taking pictures with a friend at some place, and later we found out, by accident, that it was forbidden to actually take any pictures at that place. We felt odd for a while, but then laughed about it, and the situation.
Past breakings of rules – I tried to smoke when I was about 10 – I don’t know why – but anyway I hated it and still dislike it now. I accept others doing it, but I’m not fond of it, personally.
I also tried alcohol when it was, at that age, forbidden for me. It wasn’t anything that strong, but still.
And also, when I had chickenpox (hope it’s the right word), my mothers rule was – no scratching – I still did it.
There are probably many more, which hadn’t popped in my mind yet.
Anyway…
I think there will always be some rules that we break – because sometimes we know better, what we need. The world isn’t black and white. Sometimes it’s shades of another colour. Or another color itself. We can’t take everything the same. Life is too complicated for that. Although – if we forget all the rules, then life would become unorganised and not so well-working.
I think it’s neccecary to have rules. But it’s also neccecary to be, on some occasions, bend the rules, or change them. And it’s neccecary that others understand it. And even if others don’t, we should, ourselves.
Love from Estonia,
Liina L.
Well,as I anderstood from TV ,the 9 years old girl was pregnat from a incest acting,and the biggest problem is that with this age to keep the child alive means that probably she will die!
There are very important Rules in this world(like the 10 most knowed Rules in the Bible and Coran etc.)and they should be followed not because we are forced to do that ,just because they make our and the neighbors lifes SAFER!
But in this particular case,I am sure that the girls life shuld be saved as PRIORITY!
I ´ve done one time in my life a abortion,because I was sure that the father will not be the right for my Child,and I`ve sufered from the moment I´waked up ,because I qickly anderstood that my decision was not made with my HURT ,was made with my BRAIN.Years after,I although anderstood that through suffering and breaking THE RULES ,God gaved me a Chance to elaborate about one of my DILEMAS on this LIFE -WE CAN NOT CONTROL ENYTHING!!!WE CAN ONLY EXPERIENCE AND LEARN!
LOVE
SPECIALLY THE CHILDREN AND ALL OF YOU !
Mirela(the woman in elevator)
I think rules are put to prevent harming others. When we give pain to others for our own ego, this means we break rules. Some rules may be broken by us, but there are some rules that are universal and should not be broken. One of them is “not to kill a human being”, exept extreme situations as war, etc.
In this situation, we have no rights to judge the girl, judge for all that is in the past, we have to look at the future. And by relying on the universal law of “not killing”, I can say that she should look at the child as a present of God, not as sth that will be a problem. I do not say she should not do abortion or must do that. I say, she should change her point of view.
In Islam, it is believed that the soul is inhaled to fetus after 40 days from sexual intercourse. If 40 days passed, making abortion is the same as killing an innocent child.
I can also look at the topic from another point of view…
I am a lawyer, so I deal with laws and rules everyday.
In my job, knowing the rules is a priority of course… so you can easily manipulate them, and be able to use them for your client’s advantage.
So, what is the difference between breaking rules and use them for your own sake, making them say what you want them to say?
Rules can be a way to lead a better life or indeed to hinder ones life. Those that make rules do so as they believe this will make life safer, but in doing so they do not always look at the bigger picture and thus these rules may cause more problems. If there was such thing as a perfect world where each and everyone loved and helped each other would ther be need for rules?
Rules…mmm.. I guess I break them every day, in spite of the fact that I sometimes do feel awful about that.
I break the rules daily, hourly, but the most hurtfull was having an abortion and knowing that i was killing the most beautiful dream in my life. I have always wanted and i still want a baby, in my oppinion this is the most beautiful gift that God can give to a woman. And God gave me this present and i killed it. There were certain circumstances that pushed me to do that, but still, nothing that could make me forgive myself, nevertheless expect forgivness from God. Although, I sometimes think that God forgave me, it’s me that cannot forgive myself. I still hope and live with the dream that one day, I’ll have a second chance to have a baby.
Another rule I’ve broke was being involved in a relationship with a married man, friend of my father’s, twice as old as me. We were together for about half a year. I never tried to break his family, i just loved the moments we spent together, and, maybe, i even loved him. also, it’s not a good excuse for breaking this rule.
But in my oppinion, the moment we decide to break a rule, we search for excuses that justifie our acts for the moment and we feel better having a good justification. Only after some time has passed, we realise that it was all a game of finding on purpose and making up some dumb excuse that would justifie us going the wrong way.
Cause God always gives us alternatives, good ones. It’s us who chose the easier path, that doesn’t always match the good path.
First, I have to confess – I am a man of deep (Judeo-Christian) faith but with little sympathy for what many churches call “religion”. I believe religion often gets in the way of faith – and for that matter rules often get in the way of religion. Second, I was raised 13 years as a Catholic (in US) and have a bittersweet feeling for the ancient practices of the church which, whatever you say about them, have nevertheless been the “glue” which has held Christianity together over great distances and many centuries. Now, on the topic of “When do we need to break the rules?”, I look for guidance from the source “word” behind the Catholic religion – the Bible (Old and New Covenants). Was there anyone more “notorious” (shall we say) for breaking the “rules” of the “church” of His day than Yeshua/Jesus? Healing the sick on the Sabbath? Pardoning the adulteress? Drinking from the well of a Samaritan? Breaking bread with tax collectors and lepers? He did it all. Why? To demonstrate to all of us that our duties as children of God and parts of the Body of Christ are sometimes more important than the rules of Man (even those claiming to be learned, even inspired, interpretations of the Law). So, in the end I answer the question thusly: We must break the rules (of the church) when those rules interfere with the explicit teachings of our Lord or with His most important commission for us: to love the Lord our God and to show sacrificial love toward our brothers and sisters as He did us.
I would also like to add, to Yza, that most likely, regarding abrotion, the choice of doing so will break your own heart ten thousand times, and God will only help you find relief for this pain and suffering that has crossed your path. I dont believe in a punishing God, there is reason behind it, and for whatever reason someone has to be faced with a choice like abortion at a young age, and the consequenses it brings, if it is their choice, please do not judge them. help them cause God does not abandon them then -why should other humans that are the same in the end? Anyway, just wanted to say that. (added by Mobile using Mippin)
Rules and Laws exist so that there will be some .. order in society. We all know Moses and ‘The Law’. After the Old Testament, Jesus came, the EVANGELION [Ευαγγέλιον = Good News] He is the PROFET, God’s Son of LOVE. He is the one who taught about forgiveness, for accepting the sinners, for kindness.
I belong to the Greek Orthodox Church and I have never felt suppressed or obliged to do something. About abortion the Church is not adamant. They leave everything to be solved by science and medicine, to think of the health of the mother. I only remember once the wife of a theologian that she was recommended not to become pregnant again, after three cesarean births and they thought it ..was a sin to use condoms and then she.. died leaving three children alone!! For me this was not .. faith but … narrow mindedness!!
I OBEY rules just because I want to have … peace!! I love order.
My decisions are always based on my free will, ethics and morality.
‘Do not do to others what you do not want others to do to you’, is my motto, as Paulo Coelho has said already. It is a … safe CODE!!
LOVE,
Thelma
p.s. I think, that it is not a coincidence that a Cypriot doctor in King’s College University in London named Dr. Kypros Nicolaides has invented a new method for tracing from the very first months of pregnancy the handicapped babies.
I break the rules, for I got divorced.
I break the rules, for I dated a man whose skin was darker than mine.
I break the rules, for I had more carbs that I was supposed to.
I break the rules, for I travel all over the world by myself.
I break the rules, for I often prefer inviting my parents over and cooking for them instead of going out clubbing with friends.
I break the rules, for I have built up a family made of two kittens and me.
I break the rules, for I tend to refuse eating meat.
I break the rules, for I am planning to leave what is generally recognized as a successful and smart profession, just to do… anything.
I break the rules, for I still take care of my brother and friends even when they let me down so many times.
I break the rules, for I refused to buy a big, expensive car.
I break the rules, for I do not go to the seaside in August.
I break the rules, for I have grown up as a catholic, but sing bhajans joyfully with some dear friends.
I break the rules, for I have male friends, sleep with them at times but never had sex with them (and nobody believes that).
I break the rules, for I speak to strangers.
I break the rules, for when I have money I give it away to others.
I break the rules, for when my mother was paralyzed I took her home with me and took her of her night and day, even when everyone was calling me crazy.
I break the rules, for when I was married I left my career to help my ex-husband having his own, and I would do it again, even now that I know that he was not worthy and know I would have left him.
I break the rules, for I choose to dream and move forward, instead of being just “satisfied” with a life that someone would be craving to live.
I break the rules, for I have been hurt a million times, and still love passionately.
Love,
Rossana Curri
We need to break the rules when our heart tells us to. Maybe even in a miracle like creation. Times change and if the choice is right with you, it usually is right for your path. Mistakes are part of it, cause you learn (that is something i learned). Breaking the rules of religioun though has turned more and more critical and extreme in my eyes. Dangerous even, especially when it comes to young members of the religion. I myself broke the rule in question here years ago when i was young; by doing what church denys. And i had my own demons with it afterwards – which i probably would’ve had regardless of approval. I have always been open about it, and faced questioning and judgements for my choice. In the end, i know it was right, and i will make my own peace with it and with God about it. In the end, i trust Life to guide me, and help me in these choices. I dont think anyone else is entiteld to tell you what is right and what is wrong, you have to feel it. Guidelines are good, but if what you feel for the better isn’t within those guidelines, then u have to go outside them. A priest cant in my opinon say that something is forbidden and wrong, cause what a mans heart permits them to do is most likely as right as that individual can go on their journey. All of us have clouds on our journies. Is the sum of it all that counts, and that the end of your journy you have the sun shining with a few clouds around the sky for shade. :) (added by Mobile using Mippin)
I have been reading the very longer lines people wrote and I have one simple answer to that… WE BREAK THE RULES ALWAYS IT BE REALY NECESARY..
Break the rules means break with the society and a lot of people hate do that, but when we really think and feel there is no more way, we take the short cut.. No more to say.. God Bless all u! Including u Paulo.. See u in the way!
I told a boyfriend I had an abortion and it was not true.
Later on, in life, I had a miscarriage and I did not know what was happening, it was very scary as I started bleeding and thought I was going to die.
I also think the only rule always valid is love. I think everything else may be broken as long as our actions are guided by our hearts, and as long as our hearts are filled with love.
Is abortion against this rule? It’s silly and childish to generalize this terribly complicated matter… only the person who has to live this experience knows what they feel.
I had an abortion when i was 18, and i don’t regret it (i learnt sooo much from this experience…), but i do know that there was a life inside me that i killed. And i also know i was forgiven by my God and by the life that had to choose a different way to enter this world. But these are the only beings involved – no one else has a say in that!
As for other ‘rules’ i break… I come from an Eastern Europe country, and as a child and teenager i had to break a lot of stupid rules… which made me develop a very healthy critical ‘muscle’ – i just don’t accept when others try to change things about me without any justification (dress codes, ettiquette, not being able to speak your mind…). right now i’m breaking a rule that states that i can’t get on the internet not even on my lunch break (my own time that is!!).
I want to thank Karen for her words, you filled my heart with peace, Karen, so thank you.
Rules are created by someone we gave power to.
In fact, it works out just like how we gave power to a piece of
paper, and how everyone enslaved themselves because of that piece of paper…
And the church uses that same thing to control people’s mind set.
Sometimes, we human like to have someone to tell us what to do, and
what not to do. We like to see someone more superior, we like to think that we are not capable of leading our own life. But when that someone is not considering our
interest anymore, we act the way we should. Because that’s why we
have knowledge, to do what is best for us and for the coming generations.
And by God, I mean whatever that thing is, he/she, energy, love, Omnipotent, but my experience draws me towards some sort of ‘Energy’ light.
peace.
the last sentence should read: what is the rule, why is it there…..
Don’t seek truth in rules. Indeed, lest they were breached, they were no rules.
If the rule, or the breach thereof, is good or bad will always be a matter of opinion.
In lack of a compass to guide to the course of our lives, we cling to our rules and even elevate them to divinity. But they are manmade.
In the words of the master of the temple: “Let the dirt play with dirt, if it pleases the dirt”
Often times we find the strings of morality overlapping the basic guidelines for living or what we call “Nature’s Law”. Let’s look back into the event of the beginning wherein rules or the “LAW” came from, the sun providing heat and light.. was one of them, water being cool and turning phases at different temperatures was a rule… all this was to make life simple and orderly…to make a smooth running of it. Nothing as such is good or bad, moral or immoral, sacred or non-sacred, just that it is living in accordance with these rules that was decided to be labelled as “Good” and diversion from rules was labelled as “Bad”.
Now when does it happen? With knowledge of the eternal law, one tends to move in harmony with nature or law of nature, and earns respect of all, and with the ignorance of law one tends to divert from this rule and earns disrespect.
But with evolution of man, the basic law has underwent a long journey through dogmas and bindings, that has earned the term rule a status of disgust from society rather than a beaming lighthouse of smooth living.
Love for all, and not just for the small conceited ego, is what had been initially the basis of rules and that itself and alone is worthy of respect.All rules bow/bend before love.
To conclude : Love rules the world…
For me, It’s pointless to answer this question, how many rules I’ve broken, is probably numerous.
It doesn’t make sense to me because I have been, quite a skeptical person, therefore I had such a fascination and infatuation with God, because I wanted to Believe in God, but I couldn’t just because I was supposed to. My path from since I can remember was to find God, I believed, then didn’t, was an atheist at one point, searched different religions, never read the bible though, traveled India, because I wanted Proof to believe.
Even in school, I was slow to learn because for me to comprehend something, I have to experience it, or completely understand it.
Then as I lived, and experienced life, I learned to believe.
And I can say that I have had proof of the existence of God, because so many things have happened in my life that i could not have possibly done myself.
So Rules? I’m a little skeptical about, what is rule, why is it there, who created it, for what reason, what good or bad does it do? The questions are endless…
I like your books Mr. Coelho. It inspires me and give me new insights about certain things. But, with due respect, Sir, I was somehow disappointed regarding your stand about abortion. Because, for me, it is a major offense to our Creator. To put it simply, are you not going to be offended if someone destroy what you created? Will it not break your heart? Maybe, as others say in this discussion, who are they to know the truth? But, who are we, also? Yes, we will know the truth when we are there in after-this-life. And when that came, maybe, we will realize that, when it comes to God, it is better to “follow certain rules then die and found out that it is indeed a dumb mere rule” than “offending Him and die and found out that it indeed offended Him…”
Rules are made up by people. People who lived before me, poeple who still exist, people that lead a different life than me. And they think they can say ‘how it should be’. I do not agree with that. Mostly they are made without heart. Without wisdom.
Rules from outside myself do not exist for me. So there is no breaking them either. I don’t even recognise them to begin with. I have my own values and morals. And I know they are good ones. So I live by what I think is just and right. Because of that I might fall out of the boat of society but that only pleases me. Rules that are followed by society are for people who are afraid to live their own life and have settled for being lived by others. I am the only ruler of my life and will not be bound in this time on earth by anyone else outside myself.
Sorry, there is one more thing I would like to say.
Sometime (or often), what we call “rules” is just what would made us more socially acceptable… and we follow them because we are scared we might be considered freak, weird, crazy or left apart. Or simply because we want ourselves to be “the way we are supposed to be” (supposed by whom??).
We should always try to find out wether a “rule” comes from our soul, our heart, our purse, our society, our religious community or our fears…
So that we can really make a good choice.
Rossana Curri
Rossana Curri
This is such a fantastic discussion – so many people are making so many profound and noteworthy points on the subject. I would like to thank Karen also for her account, which helps me a great deal, because her experience was apparently similar to my own – in the moment of the abortion, I knew (I felt, not with my body, but with my very soul) that a life, another living soul, was being ripped apart from my own. I knew in that instant that what I was doing was “wrong,” and yet it did not compel me to campaign against abortion, as I felt that, despite this event, everything between myself and God was eventually made right. I didn’t ask for “forgiveness” as Karen did, because within the framework of my religious views, “forgiveness” did not seem possible. Rather, for me it was more like saying, “God, I know I’ve done this thing, and I know that I will have to pay for it – I accept that fully and am willing to endure the consequences.” I suppose, for me, it was not so much a matter of “confession” and “forgiveness” as it was a matter of “karma” and the “acceptance” thereof. (These are just different religious world-views, however; the basics of the experience are the same.) For me, it wasn’t until much later in life, when I became pregnant again – when the tables were turned and it was I who wanted to keep the child, and the father who insisted so adamantly upon abortion, when I had to struggle so hard against the baby’s father, to protect this child’s life and my own from his threats – that is when I knew “it is done.” I had finally paid the karmic price for the wrong I committed when I was 17. When my daughter was born, I knew that all was forgiven – paid in full – the deal was done. Even when I was suffering through this experience, fighting with the father of this baby, losing him because I insisted on keeping his child, I knew in my heart that everything was happening just as it was supposed to be, I knew that this was a price that I was paying for a wrong I had committed so many years before. And knowing that gave me the strength to endure it, because it seemed to me that I could so clearly see God’s hand at work in these events: I had once had an abortion, even against the will of the child’s father, even though he wanted to keep that child so badly – now I was going to have a child, and the father would leave, specifically because I would not have an abortion, he would be no part of our lives. The Divine Irony of it all was brutally clear to me, and yet I accepted it and said, “Yes, it is as it should be.”
I suppose the point I’m trying to make is very much in agreement with what Karen was saying: it isn’t all just about logical or theological consistency and blind adherence to rules. Sometimes we do indeed “fall from grace,” but that fall can also be a doorway to a closer personal relationship with God. If we never do anything really wrong, if we are always good, and right and just, maybe we never get the opportunity to see the Hand of God at work in our lives, a hand reaching out to mold our hearts and shape our souls, to make us better people than we were before. We never fully understand such terms as “grace” or “karma” (whichever is appropriate to our religious world-views) until we have experienced them first hand and known them through our personal experiences.
I would also like to add to this that I think man-made rules and justice are very limited. We can and indeed often do base our laws on religious edicts – in Western society, for example, many of our laws are extracted in one way or another from the bible. And we set out, as a society, to logically construct “just” punishments for those who break these rules. However, our system of “justice” (unlike God’s) does not have the capacity to change the heart of the offender. We may say “justice has been done” – “this person has paid for their crime,” but this does not denote or necessitate any essential change in the heart of the person who committed the crime.
As an example: a person that I know well is about to be sent to prison for two years for having killed someone (a young man, with a wife and family) in an auto accident. The person who caused the accident, my friend, was not drinking and not under the influence of drugs, but he was (as he always is) driving very recklessly, and the accident was unquestionably his fault. Now, many might look at this situation and say “justice is done” – he committed a certain crime and he will pay the price, two years in prison, and the deal is done. The way I look at it, however, is a little different. I know, from talking to him, that he has not yet, in his own heart, accepted responsibility for this other man’s death. He blames “fate,” “bad luck,” God – he blames everyone BUT himself. He refuses to look at the situation head on, as it is, and say, “Yes, I was driving recklessly – I always drive recklessly – and I killed a man because of my recklessness.” As I see it, he may serve his two years in prison, but, if nothing touches his heart during that period (touches his heart as Karen says hers was touched on that table during the abortion), nothing will have changed. Justice will not be done. The wrong will not be righted. The price will not have been paid. He will still be just as guilty on the day that he gets out os prison, as on the day that he went in. Sometimes the things we do in life are so bad, the fall from grace so extreme, that only God, entering into and working upon our hearts, can make things right again. I pray for him: that he will eventually take full personal responsibility for what he has done, because I know that, if he does not, he will be in prison for the rest of his life – not behind bars, but in the cage of his heart. He recently said that he was thinking of going to this young man’s family, meeting with them, and asking their forgiveness. I said I thought this would be a good place to start – to start…. But, until he goes to God with it, and he and God work something out, he will never know freedom from the guilt of the crime he committed. Without this personal relationship with God, the two years in prison will be for nought. It will not bring that young man back to life, and it will not erase the wrong done. Only God can make some wrongs right.
first to relate to the story, a nine year old pregnant is not only extremly rare but quite difficult and dangerous for the poor girl and she and the baby might both die, apparently the church prefers that, rather than aborting!!
however i cannot bring myself to comment on the catholic church (or any other,) because im not a Christian, and as i learned from my wonderfuly diverse country, never judge that whome is different for he\she will judge you too..
rules are there and will always be there since it is common nature to feel the need of rules to shape ur destination and limit the randomness we live in.. if its rules you make or rules u are taught, we are all blessed with wonderful rationalism.. never blindly follow anything or anybody for you are capable of making your own decisions.
out of all traits givin to our mighty Lord, i praise but one constantly, He is JUST.. and our young girl will find her justace if not today in her days, years and lives to come..
Love you Paulo..
I am also an idealist when it comes to life and love but a realist when it comes to rules. I follow rules with a certain obedience required of a normal person but there are certain rules in life or religion that we all know due to the circumstance we have to break one way or another. This is a total different situation but one example is I am practicing pre marital sex. I and my boyfriend are engaged for almost two years and of course it is normal but forbidden in the rules of the Catholic Church and here in the Philippines for most who is brought up in a Catholic school, family and community its even a taboo to discuss the issue and to admit you have made such sin. At times I feel guilty but I find a reason to cover up the guilt by defending myself by claiming that were already engaged so there’s no problem. I am 23 and I started doing it when I was in college when I was 19.
Well, first of all I would like to thank everyone for sharing such intimate experiences, that probably brought back painful memories and painful emotions.
Someone has also been very clear and detailed about their opinion, and this really helps to focus on our own issues.
As for me, I have no RULES about RULES.
Today I do have certain guidelines in my life, but they are different from the ones I used to have in the past, and I am almost sure they will change in the future: the more I learn, the less rules I have.
This is especially true as for others: if I have “rules” to govern my own life, I have way less rules to judge others upon. In other words, I can be at times severe to myself, but I am extremely tolerant with what others do, because – if I know the reasons and the circumstances which made me behave in a certain way – I cannot really know what made others do what they did.
So I’d rather not judge, and do not extend my rules to anyone but myself.
This was a great achievement to me, because it allows me to be as open as possible to the people that cross my way in this life.
Another topic is religious rules, and especially Catholic rules, as I am Italian and was born and brought up Catholic.
Well, most of the rules in Catholic religion are made by men, not by Jesus Christ – and I guess this is why we call ourselves Catholic instead of just Christians. So, in my opinion, it’s up to us: if we want to join the HUMAN community of Catholicism, we should be coherent and follow its rules; but we can also follow the rules that Jesus Christ gave us through the Gospels, ignoring MEN’s rules. This is what I do, for example.
Anyway, we are all and always bound to rules: religious, social, legal… And those rules must always pass the test of our own conscience, that tends to recognize “natural” and basic rules more than more sophisticated ones. And – amazingly – most of those natural and basic rules match the Jesus Christ’s teaching.
When did I break the so-called rules? Many times.
I broke religious rules when I decided to divorce, but I would have broken natural rules if I had not done so. I mean the natural rules that ask all men and women to share their life with someone they really love, and not just with someone that is there at that time, that place.
And then another issue comes out at this point: I had to break the rules and divorce because I had broken the golden rule of love EARLIER, getting married without a real and effective awareness.
So, of course, it would be much better to pay attention to natural rules and follow them since the beginning, instead of following religious and social rules (getting married, raising a family within a certain age) with no real involvement, and then we have to break those same religious and social rules to bring back things to a certain balance.
As I said, I broke and still break many “rules” – but, yet, we should first agree on what we call “rules”…
Love,
Rossana Curri (Italy)
…not we should, but we would be treated (and in many ways we already are) like puppets on string !
Dear Unstranger,
Thank you for understanding me, I agree with you that without braking away, without evolution of rules we would die, we should be treated like puppets on a string.
As Dessy said God is forgiving but people are not, unfortunately these persons who should surch their conscience the most, are fierce judges of others.
Aditya, I ‘ve heard too many Sundays “Turn the other cheek” and that rule just popped in my mind while writing, and sure I WILL NOT turn other cheek, for no reason. I could appologize if something wrong I unintentionaly did…but the other cheek no !
And
rules if LOVE is missing in any of them I SHALL NOT accept or obey or teach or expect anyone not to break them.
Love to you all
Luce
I think someone said that the babies born in the absence of love, (rape or whatever other reason) their souls are in a way doomed. Everything is energy. From conception, or whenever exactly, who knows when, but it continues on…
About Changing religions, I think there is a very important concept here; just like turning your head away and ignoring the situation… Leaving the rest lost. Why not shed some light where it’s dark?
Miguel Angel, are those the reasons why YOU would or would not get an abortion? how can you speak on behalf of someone else. You want to put yourself in the shoes of a 9 year old girl, and get fucked and raped and have to carry him inside of you for 9 months?
I do not wish this upon you!
It’s interesting you mention the morning after pill… I was in a situation once, where I had sex with someone and there was a question of the condom being broken. I was mortified because I was in love with someone else. I wasn’t meant to get pregnant because the guy I had sex with was sterile, that means he is incapable of having children, he has testicular cancer.
The rest you wouldn’t understand.
Peace!
1. we shall break any rules any time we feel it’s appropriate.
2. we should know that the responsibility is upon us, in both cases, whether obeying or breaking the rules
3. rules ore not from god
4. laws of the universe are from god, determining how things work. those laws don’t tell how to behave or what to do. those laws tell what happens if one does this or that. including the consequences of breaking man-made rules.
5. if one is uncertain, he should listen to inside. it’s always clear, if an act, decision or plan does have god’s bless. if so, do that. if not, don’t. but only YOU can tell it, after some silent listening to your inside.
6. it happens your decision turns to be wrong. no problem. the responsibility is yours. if you did your best after careful consideration, when you had taken the decision, that was the best one could do. it’s no reason to blame yourself: just take the consequences and be happy to learn from the case.
I guess, it’s quite simple : )
“Last week , on his first visit to Africa, Pope Benedict said that AIDS
cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problem.” Avaaz
http://www.avaaz.org/en/pope_benedict_petition/97.php/?cl_tta_sign=6c9390d6574a3aa959fa6c08807f727a
So in other words, Dear opinion owner, You are suggesting that there should be another set of rules, allowing to break other rules once they become obsolete for performing certain task(s)?
Question still remains the same: who makes the decision? Another human? How?
Rules are still agreed by humans. Even divine ones – aren’t they? Once made by humans – why not to break them as well?
Because no human is perfect. Thus, arent rules imperfect as well? While being imperfect, there must be a way around – allowing to bend rules or make them new. All that in a name for greater success – way to perfection!?
rules are set by societies,religions,people,countries….
they are not set by me so I have to break them…
I follow rules that i set for myself
and after a while ….i do break these rules again….simply coz they dont make sense anymore….and i set new rules…and it goes on and on and on….
Rules matter as long as one is heading for a desired goal or outcome. Like if one wants to go unhurt or accident free on a road, one needs to obey traffic rules. Obedience to rules is not to oblige the authorities that made them, but to oblige ourselves, and that we need to understand that rules were also made out of LOVE for the users and not for the authority to exert its supremacy.
como um rio
paulo eu ja estou atrasada, porem antes de ir gostaria de dizer de que se nao fosse a igreja catolica eu hoje nao existiria, minha mae ja estava com a data e hora marcada para o aborto, e foi pressionada na ultima hora pela patroa dela que é muito catolica “se vc abortar arrume as suas e desapareca” minnha mae nao tendo para aonde ir resolveu ter o bebe “eu”, nao tive uma infancia feliz , minha mae nao foi a melhor mae do mundo, minha juventude foi um inferno, mais eu sobrevivi estou aqui e aprendendo amar cada vez mais a vida, as vezes deixar a vida fluir como um ruim nao é tao ruim assim….
the canons of the Church *have already* considered the circumstances. many people don’t realize that The Magisterium (teaching body of the Church – Pope + Bishops) has already thought/prayed this through… not in the case of this 9 year old, but of *billions* of people before. so past, present, future. the world over. rules are based on societal norms. doctrine defines morality. so then, morality transcends society’s rules. and in this case, abortion is not allowed nor should it be.
back to the 9 yr old – the Church would, and probably is, offering all its support to this girl. people assume that just cuz The Church says no to abortion, then the girl is left alone. no way! Churches are some of the most involved (at least here in USA) in helping *single mothers* especially young ones – financially, emotionally (psychologists, counselors), etc.
breaking rules is only worth it when i have learned ‘why’ the rule was in place. you can’t just break a rule w/o knowing why it was put there in the first place (as in this case). then, if my morals tell me otherwise, i will break the rule.
romper com as regras as vezes fica dificil,nao so a igreja catolica que continua “com ideias velhas” o Islam tambem, püorque nao criticar esta religiao tambem?
1- ja fiz um aborto e foi horrivel sofri muito.
2- tenho 37 anos e somente agora vou estudar “ausbildung” aqui na alemanha.
o resto das regras que quebrei nao posso comentar aqui ou melhor nao quero comentar aqui, mais uma coisa posso te dizer a minha vida foi feita de “romper com regras” se nao eu nao teria sobrevivido!
aborto paulo nao e uma coisa facil, porem deve ser a mulher quem decide se quer ou nao o bebe, no caso da menina ….meu deus como ela e nova…eu teria pago o aborto para ela quer a igreja catolica queira quer nao, break the rules….
One could think it is an easy question
and the spontaneous answer would be:
“to save life” – but at any cost?
Questions around life and death are not
easy at all.
but my first thought was Hitler. If more
people during the 30:ies had broken against
the rules…
I’m a very obedient person, I tried to think
of any time I seriously had broken against any
law but couldn’t think of one… more than once
when I stole candy from the shop as a child??
I usually find myself breaking rules only just brfore they break me.
We had a case in my country ,the girl raped was 11.Was not the church causing problems,but doctors,because no one took the responsibility to make the abortion,because laws hindered them to do that at such an age.But the girl was risking to die as well as the child she carried.In the end,some clinic in England accept to make the abortion,and that was the end.After that case were changed rules even here,because people realized case are not in a pattern.
I can say ,which priest who is against abortion was raped and pregnant at nine?How can they judge?But the truth is there are so many rules that does not fit every situation.Maybe are good for some case,but not for all.Nobody is happy doing an abortion,I guess.We avoid to do that if we can.But the 9 years old girl is not an grown up.Cant be consider responsible.
Now pope visited Angola.I respect the pope a lot, but that does not mean I will do exactly as he says…Was a big discussion around the use of condoms.Pope says is against the church policy,and recommend to be avoided as a sin…But AIDS is increasing ,and such remarks were taken as dangerous.I think one is free to decide in the end.Pope says not do that,but if I think is safe to use condom for sex,I will use it .And,I think pope is in good faith.What he try to say is to be faithful,so,one not need to worry about AIDS.He was not saying go and make sex with no protection.
I think the truth is always in the middle .
I wonder still where exactly in the holly BIBLE is written that condom is prohibited?…Some sentences are rephrased,and is people that creates such rules, I guess.
I think church is in good faith, intentions must be good.Just sometimes the road towards hell is paved with good intentions…
I hope I was not unfair,or too bitter.I apologize if I said something wrong.All the best to everybody,bye
NOW!
I delight myself when I break rules. Wish I could say I’m an original, but both my parents were sociopaths. Mom taught me how to peek at presents before Christmas and Dad told me to pick up a brick and hit the kid next door with it the next time she beat me up. The Church wouldn’t give Mom communion when she divorced, but she took it anyway. They wouldn’t let my aunt take birth control, even when the infant she bore every year had increasingly disturbing problems. More at http://www.bloodmother.com
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