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23 Responses to “Lorens”
Comment Page 1 of 11
Namaste,
I think the last lines of Lorens was the most enlightening about him. I don’t have it with me at present to quote exactly, but he said that he sought God even though he didn’t believe. I’ve noticed that with Atheists whom I’ve discussed religion and philosophy with. Many of them have rejected religion because of the behaviors of people who run religions instead of whether or not God exists. They use their experience within a religion to define God instead of using their hearts to experience God within Creation.
For me, Brida was bringing science closer to religion through her relationship with Lorens. For me science for me is comparable to learning about someone through their art… except with science we are learning about God as the artist. When Brida brought information from the Tradition of the Moon to Lorens, he could justify it scientifically. This has been my experience as well, especially with the growing knowledge of Quantum Physics, which I don’t pretend to understand at all. With Brida, Lorens would merge the world of magic and the world of science bringing growth to both disciplines.
Love to you
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NUUUUUUU….
Pare o manea in versuri.
De ce?
Ai postat unele versuri frumoase inainte. Iarta-ma, dar ceva e de prost gust in poemul tau.
Habibi vino? Nu mai vorbind de greseli gramaticale. Reciteste inainte de a posta, sau pune-te la curent cu noile reguli .
Numai bine
Pa
[Reply]
This is just a general question, but it seems to relate somewhat to the discussion of Lorens: Can someone who is truly an atheist BE on a spiritual path?
And I’m not trying to be sarcastic. This is a question that I am really grappling with in my own life at this moment. I have, in the past, allowed myself to go out with men whose primary concern seemed to be the things of this world - attaining riches, or success, or just navigating through life as though material and tangible objects were the only reality. These relationships never worked out, because, for me, what is MOST important is the spiritual essence of things and of life itself. That is the way I navigate through life. The material outcomes are more of an effect, but seldom the core objective.
I don’t consider myself to be of any one religion, but I can relate to all of them on some level. I also find it easy enough to relate to someone who says that they don’t believe in organized religion at all and are completely opposed to it, yet they still believe in God/The Goddess/The Universe…whatever…just Something that is larger then we are as individuals and connects us all to one another. I just don’t know how to relate to someone who says that: “What you see is what you get! The material is all there is. There is nothing more to life, and nothing after. God does not exist!”
Some time ago I told myself that I would never again go out with any man, no matter how much attraction I may feel, if he is not on some sort of spiritual path of his own and firmly rooted in that. Now I’ve met this man who says: “I’m an atheist and no one is going to convince me otherwise. They better not even try!” Well, I think he’s attractive, but as soon as I heard that, I said to myself, “Just forget it. Let it pass.” I don’t go around trying to convert anyone to any path and I don’t think it is my job to “convince” anyone of anything. I do believe in the existence of the Divine, but I feel that everyone has to arrive at that realization for themselves.
So, although there is the attraction, I’ve decided not to go out with him or allow the thing to develop in any manner other than as a friendship. I’m just wondering what all of you think of that. I try very hard in my life to be as open-minded as possible: I would date a man if he were a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Taoist, or if he adhered to some other less-tradition or even completely unique path. Maybe he has his own beliefs that conform to no religion or tradition - I am fine with that. But dating an Atheist, I just don’t feel that I can or want to do that, because the whole thing is destined for failure from the start: We are building our lives on two separate foundations: his on the material, mine on the spiritual.
I’d just like to hear your opinions, especially if they are different from my own. I like to hear other ways of viewing the world that I might not have considered yet.
Much Love,
Savita
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Paulo Coelho Reply:
July 17th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
I dated some atheists in my life. They were not different from people who believe in God (like me, for ex.). This is not the issue; the issue is how commited you are to the world.
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Savita Vega Reply:
July 18th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
That makes a lot of sense. Something to consider. Thanks, Paulo!
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Alexandra Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 6:01 am
I agree, and after all, what is really an atheist?
Some asks me if I was in church each Sunday. I say I go, but not always. So, they say that means I am not a good Christian… If I say, look, I believe God is everywhere, seems they understand a bit. Well, people will never be satisfied of others behaviour. I dont try much to please them neither.
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rosa de los vientos Reply:
July 17th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Sometimes Savita you can stay with a men that he belive in God and you tell him something that is your experience and he don´t belived you fell the same like that, the life is not perfet and the answer is LOVE AND RESPEC wherever to be the person in religion or other thing.
Kises for you, your thougths are very interesating.
[Reply]
Savita Vega Reply:
July 18th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Thanks, Rosa, for your reply. I think a lot of the problem is really with me. I know that many of the things that I have experienced in my life could never be “proven,” and yet those experiences shaped me greatly. Many of the topics we discuss so openly here in this blog touch on those experiences. Meeting so many open-minded people here on this blog has also helped me to see just how wonderful it is to be able to share those experiences openly and without fear of criticism or rejection. I just don’t want to spend my life with someone around whom I have to constantly censor myself to keep from offending them or to avoid being labeled as insane. I want, rather, to be with someone with whom I can share my beliefs and my experiences openly, even if we do not always agree - someone who believes in the existence of things that cannot always be seen with the eye or proven by science.
Much love to you Rosa!
Kisses,
Savita
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rosa de los vientos Reply:
July 21st, 2009 at 8:36 pm
I undertand you and ofcourse you can fine your soulmater and grow you two.
And you Savita learm me many times and thank you very much for all. I´m very happy to have persons like you and others in here and speack about this temes.
Much love to you too.
Carolena Sabah Reply:
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:37 am
Beautiful Savita,
And I am sure you will meet someone like that!
Yes life becomes really magical when one Believes!
Love
C.
I feel Lorens is following his own path. Why would the path of a scientist or let us say an atheist not be a spiritual path. Why would the Magus (although i really love his wisdom) understand Brida better than Lorens? Maybe they see different aspects of her, but equally authentic. Spirituality is not necessairly a path that can only be found in spiritual or religious practices. The normal everyday things in life can be full of experiencing life. Life itself is magic.
whatever it is one does for work, if it fulfills him, then that man is on the spiritual path, even thought he might me tuning cars or selling fish. Why would’t Lorens be on his own path? Just because he is open to Brida? Why wouldn’t Lorens be perfect for Brida?
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Savita Vega Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Certainly, I think one could follow science as a spiritual path, or any other undertaking for that matter. But I just did not see that in Lorens, not until the very end of the novel. At a certain point, it seems that Lorens undergoes a kind of spiritual awakening. Only at that point, I think, his path really opens up.
“‘I don’t know if God exists,’ he said to the trees around him. ‘And yet I can’t think about that now, because I, too, am face-to-face with the mystery.’”
At that point, I think his true path opens up. He is just beginning. Before that, science was just science - now it is a doorway to understanding the Great Mysteries that all seek to answer in so many ways.
When I compare him to the Magus, though, he still pales in comparison. There is something about the Magus’ great wisdom, his long dedication to a particular path, his solidness and self-assurance, that is greatly compelling. At the end, Lorens was deeply jealous; the Magus, on the other hand, was able to rise above jealousy to be completely selfless. I just felt that Brida herself was more deserving of the latter. She was worthy of being with the Magus, but Lorens was not quite worthy of her.
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Goldmund Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Your words are my own Franceska! No matter how far someone is on his spiritual path, it is no guarantee she/he is perfect for someone. There are so many twists and turns in this wonderful life, in this world full of mysteries, that none, even the wisest clairvoyant can foresee anyone’s happiness, except God, who always knows the wishes of our hearts, long before we become aware of them. And “the one who is on the top of the mountain, has wider panorama than the one at the foot of the mountain”…
[Reply]
Annie Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
“..long before we become aware of them “(of the wishes), or maybe because we dont listen to our hearts.. we chose many times not to listen to our hearts, denying ourselves…
I loved you quote in the end
Thank you deeply
Love and Graditude
Annie
…listening
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Goldmund Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
Thank you dearest Annie… listening, and responding… :)
We are often scared to listen to our hearts, fearing we might find there something to ruin everything we achieved in life. Like Paulo who thought he had got the job of his life so his writing aspirations could be put aside, for some “other times”, just to discover the following day after his decision was made, that he was fired.
If we are to pursue our dreams, Lorens is the perfect metaphor. He did not abandon staying with Brida, no matter how much scientific or atheistic his mind was, and his lack of spiritual knowledge and training. However he IS very spiritual sort, if you remember Wicca’s lesson to Brida, about mechanic who repaired her car with a genuine spiritual devotion.
In my opinion, it does not matter whether our partner is “spiritual” or not - the only thing important is LOVE and UNDERSTANDING of what we are doing. He was persistent because he really loved her, no matter the mighty competition Magus presented.
I realized some time ago, why my own student, who fell in love with me, kept introducing me to her boyfriends. Like Brida, who made them face each other, and herself as well, to try to discover the TRUE wish of her heart, my student wanted to observe what hidden reactions would show up, to help her decide.
Although I found all boys being great, with great potentials, they were not match for her. They showed no healthy possessiveness, but the ugliest form of control and domination, wanting her, in fact, to have her be their own guru to guide them painlessly through life.
On realizing that, she also realized she was trying to do the same with me; realized also that I was not responding, for I loved her deeply and wanted her to be strong, not to turn her own power into my hands. From that moment on, our bond became stronger than ever, and Lorens who was brave enough to be with her, finally appeared in her life :)
“You are never given a dream without also being given the power to make it true. You may have to work for it, however.”
Poor Lorens, I know he tried to support Brida in her activity, he came in the forest for the ritual, but I do like much more the Magus. De gustibus… Very interesting that was with him that Brida released the energy of love.
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Annie Reply:
July 7th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Poor Lorens? I ‘d say lucky Lorens!since the Magus made a choice not to be with Brida
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Alexandra Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Annie dear, is only about my taste… Never mind me. Brida have to be with the right person, maybe Lorens was that one. As you say, maybe you are right. He was lucky .
Love
Alexandra
[Reply]
Annie Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Dearest Alexandra, unfotuantely I dont know how Life works…and most of the times, it doesnt work the way we want..there is a greek saying “When we make plans, God laughs!”
i liked the Magus also, he is like a magnetizing force…we are all drawn to him..
Alexandra Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Nice your quote dear Annie. Thank you.
Love Alexandra
Savita Vega Reply:
July 7th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Yes, poor Lorens! It was good that the book ended as it did - complex, unexpected, not just a “fairy tale” sort of ending. But, at the same time, I so wanted Brida to end up with The Magus! Although Lorens was closer to her own age, he just wasn’t that compelling. And, yes, he was her soul mate too, but he just didn’t seem to be at all on her level in terms of spiritual development.
I’ve had so many struggles in my own life with men who were not on a spiritual path (for whom “reality” was merely the material realm and nothing more), men who had no interest in spiritual matters at all…. Lorens seemed to be open to and interested in these things ONLY because he loved Brida, and sometimes this is just not enough. Speaking for myself, I know (at least I know now, after much experience) that I don’t want to be with a man who wants to explore and adopt my spiritual path. I want to be with someone who is on their OWN path, and who is strongly rooted in that path. I want to be with the Magus!
[Reply]
Aine Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
was it not with Lorens that Brida opened herself up to feel love when they were on the walk that day? Did she not free her senses that day and the Magus knew that when he next saw her? I think that Lorens was a rock for Brida and that she was lucky to have him in her life at that moment in time.
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Savita Vega Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Yes, I’m sure you’re right. There are so many ways of interpreting a book - that’s the wonderful thing about great literature: it has the capacity to speak to each of us in a unique way. The story is one, but the messages it carries are near infinite, as many as there are readers.
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