While moderating the forum on Homosexuality, I realized that all the justifications pro and against Homosexuality are based on religious dogmas. I’m myself a catholic, but looking to this current pope, I don’t think I’m doing a lot of good to my church. At the same time I have to respect some dogmas, things that I believe, things that beyond the human condition.
How far can we go, when we realize that what the priest or the rabbi, or the imam says goes against our beliefs?
I think that althought we belong to an established religion, sometimes you have to take your spiritual path in your hand. I’m not talking about new age, new theory, thinking that you can put everything in a basket or choosing that we are going to create our own religion. I’m talking about the importance of being capable of distinguish between things that are really important to us and things that somehow maybe manipulated by our religion. So, I’m looking forward to your opinions on this subject.
And, yes, I have a white t-shirt again.
Thank you,
Paulo
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Ther eis only one religion, the religionof the good heart.
I agree wholeheartedly that you have to “take your spiritual path in your own hands.” Jesus suggested as such in the Gospel according to Matthew when he suggested that you pray alone in a closet. Your relationship with G_d is a personal one, as is your spiritual journey.
having a religion does not guarantee us salvation. it doesnt matter what religion we chose to submit our self. what matters is our way of life towards the world, other people and to our selves. as long as we dont harm anybody.
our love to whoever we worship, what ever we call Him. there is just one God, above us all. lets serve Him with all our love and love everything He created.
In reality, no single religion could guarantee us a place in Heaven. In the end, what matters is how we a treat other people.;*.
Religions were created to control people. And people who wield power do not care what people believe so long as they are controlling it. And many are led into the deadly trap of equating religion with goodness…
Can philosophy be a threat to religion? Religion is a man’s history, run by men as a rule – the way they want us to swallow it -.
I see it as a manipulation of the masses, playing on our insecurities – keeping us in the dark ages -(in our tribal mode).
Are you colour-blinded?
Runs in family, the mother is the one carrying the gene? Interesting! I believe it is a good sign .
Agreed.
Religion is just a system of control, has nothing to do with God. When evil men destroyed the “golden age” on this planet, the natural matriarchal order of the universe, we saw the beginnings of the patriarchal priesthoods. They gave terrible names to huge grotesque figures of stone and forced ordinary people to worship them. Evil man to control women, to ensure that they never remembered the glories of their past. Also, brutal man to control the kindly man and the leaned and wise man. The priesthood has become more sophisticated with time but religions still are what they were created to be, a system of control stopping the ordinary person from becoming enpowered. The spiritual DNA burns up and becomes one with the physical DNA in the womb or the mother. And the spiritul DNA retains the power and knowledge of the Universe but, the different systems of control, including religion, will prevent the spiritual DNA from manifesting. Un-evolved souls are easy to control… So, mr Coelho, how is it possible a smart man like yourself still believes in dogmas?
Coehlo,
Your next book should be about religions and how they do more harm than good in the world.
All religions explain to the same thing! GOD.
Las religiones mucha veces confunden y nos quitan la libertad de pensar y actuar como nosotros quisieramos, seguimos preceptos y dogmas que no van con uno ni con nuestras necesidades y es alli donde comenzamos a cometer errores; la fe como fe en si misma es buena lo que no nos sirve es ampararnos en ella utilizarla como excusa a nuestras acciones y dejar de ser uno mismo en pos de esa misma fe que nos habla de una igualdad entre hombres cuando en la vida real las cosas son diferentes.
Es el caso de los matrimonios entre personas de diferente creencia, no se pierde la fe por estas cuestiones, al contrario se enriquece puesto que ambas creencias podrian utilizarse en beneficio de una mejor relacion con Dios.
Lo que sucede es que entran otras cosas en juego, otros intereses que no tienen que ver con FE sino con materialismo.
La pregunta es si Dios es amor, si ante los ojos del Señor somos todos iguales por que entonces no podemos crecer en el amor en este caso de una pareja, sin dejar de lado nuestras creencias?
Porque hay cuestiones ocultas y porque el odio a los otros crece dia a dia, entonces nos estamos conduciendo a tener que buscar el amor de un hombre o mujer en nuestra religion, eso no es obligarnos?
Eso no es cuestion de fe, la fe esta en quien la tiene, mas alla de cualquier religion raza o cultura, lo importante es que podamos conservar el amor al projimo cosa que esta fuera de uso.
Padezco Trastorno Bipolar. Tengo 53 años. Y desde los 37 tengo Inbalidez Absoluta Permanente.
En aque entonces Lei el Alquimista y mi vida empezó a cambiar.
Luego leí el resto de libros de Paulo Coelho menos el del Camino de Santiago y quizás alguno más de los últimos.
Mi vida dió un giro de 360º.
Paulo te estoy eternamente agradecido. Un abrazo.
EA1-ERC
[About pointers]
It is as simple as you have put it, Catherine. You are ‘human’ but also ‘being’, you have your physical form. But you are spirit too, which brings you on a spiritual path- if you are ready. This path is not important in the form it takes. It serves as a pointer! No holy text has value of itsself. It is holy because it can bring you to a deeper dimension within yourself, whereby the words operate as a pointer. There are many powerful pointers in the Bible, or any other holy book. Let the peace flow through you as you read those pointers,ensoul it, but treat them as pointers only. Let it help you guide your way on your spiritual path, do not let it come between you and your path. So really, dogma and pointer cannot exist together you see.
yo no seria persona si no tuviera religion, soy catolica pero no comparto algunas cosas con la religion a la q me bautizaron…
lo malo ded las religiones q mucho condenan y poco ayudan.
tengo un familiar homosexual t toda mi familia lo respeta muchisimo por que siempre ayudando y es muy cariñoso a pesar de su pasado q no es muy bien visto por los demas… se ha ganado nuestro respeto
I would like to share the following text I dreamed in Sedona 10 years ago on December 19th, 1998:
PLANETARIANS
1
The planet Earth is our home. On this Planet, we travel through the Universe. Earth and Universe belong together and are both a place of joy and wisdom.
2
The Planet Earth is full of life. All life forms have their own beauty and their own right to exist. A Planetarian respects this right and treats life with respect.
3
There is more on Earth and in the Universe than can be seen with human visual sense. Even the molecules of a stone are full of vibrating energy. This energy is eternal and belongs to the Universe.There is enough of it for all on Planet Earth.
4
Life on Planet Earth unfolds like the Universe unfolds. There is no good or bad in this. Enjoying life with respect is enjoying the eternity of the universal energy.
5
Wisdom comes in many forms and does not claim to be right. It is always there and can be found everywhere. Today it has many names and tomorrow it will be one.
6
With the respect for life and the knowledge of the eternal force, Planetarians are part of the beauty of energy. They believe in the unification of all religions and all nations on Earth to enjoy the Universe together.
7
We are always acting with respect for life and we enjoy traveling through the life in all its forms. We know that all is one and one is all. With the Millennium of Unification to come, we work for being one Nation on one Planet.
8
We do not use force in the unification of the Planet Earth. Dignity is the biggest force of all and peace will come to the Planet. We are not in a hurry. Because our souls are eternal and our energy can not be destroyed. We know that there are no secrets.
Paulo,
I think this is the weight that comes with choosing to remain a member of an organized religion. That said, I am not a member of one–but it’s still difficult. I have a lot of spiritual beliefs which do coincide with yours. Like you, I am always looking inward and outward for answers. What I mean to say is that there are challenges and rewards to following a religion with a dogma, but the same is true for a spiritual system with no specific dogma.
I think either way it’s good to know where you stand on issues. That is the journey. It also makes us good Warriors.
Tara @ Merry Meet
Paulo.
I have never replied to any posts before and from reading some of the replies there have been alot of great responses from some perhaps more eductaed persons’ on the subject but for what its worth i feel compelled to write!
I often question what religion is and how far should you let it lead your life. I have been brought up in a chrsitian family attending variour churches but mainly those with an evangelical slant.You see, my mum has a really strong faith and it has led her through many heartaches and troubled times and I have total respect for the fact it has been a tower of strength for her, and without it my family may not be as it is today. For many years she taught us about her faith but was very clear that we should make our own choice in life whether it should be christianity, no faith or a different faith.
As it stands my sisters and i went on to marry into completely different cultures and religions,not because we sought to but maybe the good lord above was having some fun, my eldest has married into a jewish family, my middle to a muslim family and I a non-practiscing family.
My parents have welcomed each of these decisions with open arms but neither of the relationships have been plain sailing. Acceptance and conversion have put many obsticles in each of our ways from the other families.
What i have learned from this is that often, for many, religion is not a faith as such it’s a way of life, and for some a habit. You drive on the left hand side of the road because thats what the book says, you butter your toast first before the jam because thats what you were always taught…….you get the picture.
So it is with this approach to religion that i struggle. I know first hand that true faith can work wonders but i think in alot of cases a level head is what is needed, not a rule book.
I myself don’t know all the rules of my own chosen religion but i have a belief in something and sometimes thats all that matters!
Hope that makes some sense!
Take care,
Fiona
MIL BESOS PARA DARTE: FELIZ CUMPLEAÑOS
THOUSAND KISES FOR YOU: HAPPY BITHDAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9JRsX4reKs
Dear Savita,
In the country where I live, there are many churches built for wrong reasons. One is right infront of our house. The pastor is so particular with titheing,the giving of the 10% of your monthly earnings. The building of this church is like that of church 1 but with members of church 2. In this “Pastor’s church”, you won’t be able to see members who are afluent and with powers in our community. The pastor prefers people who are in the farms, with lower positions and rarely with degrees.My dad was once a member and an officer of that church. But since my dad is highly educated, knows his rights and laws, withdrew his membership to the satisfaction of the Pastor, after asking my dad to sign the constitution stipulating that all of the church’s properties will be inherited by his children. No lawyers, no doctors, no businessmen, no high ranking officials just people from the middle class or no education will do so long that members have jobs in the farms, factories,seas etc. and flex to his own-made constitution. He is after the quantity and not quality of his church members. 10% of this quantity has allowed him to have a beautiful house near his church and an expensive car and who knows what else. This pastor is smart and gives inspiring and heart wrenching sermons touching and moving the hearts of his members to give,give,give. If you go against his rules you’ll be expelled from his church. This is just 1 church in my country’s corrupt churches. Pastors, priests, Imam, should also be close to real life. With Love, Angel
We all have God Given Free-Will. And without judgment I will have to say that I believe that anything that stops a person’s spiritual progression and that is vast, is evil.
Churches are not evil. As Jesus said, ‘Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.’
Do you realize that you actually can perpetuate something you ‘hate’ by simply not stopping for a moment talking about it?
Example: If you don’t like war and you want to stop it or greatly hinder it you must think about The Light. By protesting something especially with the power of words you just give these abysmal things more and more energy and destructive power because the consciousness fills with your hate and negative energy.
To dispel think of Love replacing hate. Think of acceptance and open your heart. It is by Will alone that we set Our Minds in Motion!
The Pastor above is abusing his parish but it is his choice to do so and he will pay in Karma!
The beauty of being Free? We can decide to not partake in something we don’t believe in right!?
We are solely responsible to as Christ said, ” Know Thyself.”
Please don’t waste your valuable energies on such things as what others are doing.
Imagine your heart opening wide like a flower and Light emanating from it. We must all unify and step forward together .
I left the Church after many years because I thought as an institution it just took and never gave. It ignored the poverty around it and was hypocritical.
The truth is until I became a Physical Initiate in The Hierarchy of
Light I truly had no connection to Jesus!
Now it is a deeply rewarding and very personal relationship and deeply loving as well! Every day is met with JOY! I highly recommend to anyone looking to connect to spirit to go here:
modernmysteryschool.com and even if you do feel spirit in all things. This School and it’s Teachings will be applicable in your life now. It is your choice and I send you all Love and Light.
THANKS!
LFN1
Happy Birthday Dear Paulo! From Philippines with Love. More Power and Wisdom to you…Love, Angel
Happy Birthday, Dearest PAULO!
I wish you that all your drams come true!
Thank you for everything, sorry if I was bit harsh sometimes…
Much much love
Alexandra
We are always personal responsible and I always believed that when we look inside we know what is good or bad
But anyway I came to say Happy Birthday
HAP-HAPP-HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
All the best in youre life, I wish to you all and a lot of sun in youre life !
In my personal opinion one only religion can’t have the complete reason , there is many many good aspects of each diferent believes. As a catholic or not, Budism contains wisdom, so why not take all of the good things of diferent religions, such as life balance and values? Making a choice among our minds and beliefs seems to me more sincere.
FELIZ CUMPLEAÑOS PAULO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgB482zZrtw&feature=player_embedded
HAPPY BIRTHDAY Paulo Coelho!!
Dearest beuatiful Rosa, thank you for reminding us the happy time in Paris. Love to all of you beautiful people, Warriors of the Light, who were there in flesh or …. in SPIRIT; the ..’Cinderellas’, as Pandora has named herself. ;-]
LOVE,
Thelma xxx
Happy birthday!
About Homosexuality I think it’s far from being a sin. We fall in love with people not with bit’s or lack of, that may come later. This doesn’t affect me personally but I find it so wrong to limit love, more so when it doesn’t affect only those involved. Why would we do something like that when there is so much hate and intolerance already? Why condemn a person to live a life they don’t want, just because it can’t fit their narrow minds? Just let them be. The more people who can find their happiness the better for the world we live in, less stress, less irritability. How many men and women marry just to fulfill the supposed right thing to do only to end in an ugly divorce? hurting both parties and children, if they have any, in the process. I could go on and on about this issue. That’s how strongly I feel about it.
I was raised a Catholic. In these days I don’t believe in what I used to. Don’t get me wrong I still believe in God, in a way, just not religion’s ideas of him. Whenever I seek God’s presence I feel the same sense of peace within me. It doesn’t matter which church, religion or location it’s the same to me. God is the same every where I go. My dogma would be don’t do to others what you don’t want done to you (don’t know who said it). And that covers all, even the ten commandments.
What I don’t believe is in religion. In my opinion religion is a convenience for some, a bliss for a few, an obligation for most, and a damn right nuisance for the rest.
a follower from twitter,
@mlb_matos
Wanted to respond, but the only word that comes is..
Yes! ∞
with love, Daniel
I didn’t know where else to do it, on this site, so I’ll do it here – HAPPY B-DAY!!!!!!
21.Dear Mr.Coelho!I wish you to follow ten commandments and to enjoy every minute of “11 minutes”.Happy Birthday!
What right a society of celebate old men has to lecture the world on sexuality or morality? The established religions and the thier dogma’s and dictates seem to have little relavance in the chaotic modern world in which we live. Religion seems to be the basis of so many disputes in the world it tests my personal faith deeply. I find it hard to rationlise a god who is so cruel and uncaring. I truly hope there is something more than non existance at the end of our journeys as theres little enough solace to be found in this life.
Every time I look inside myself, I can feel the nature of life, the connection with the Whole, the breathe of God in this universe; when I pray, really I try to lose my silence in the totality, in that Silence that is above all, that some call “Love”, some others “Tao”, “Agape”… in front of this i understand the role of priests of every religion, no matter of the numbers or power of their members.. their function is just to show us the path, in paricular moments and scenes, but chancworses are ours, and no priest could stand between me and God… the true Word, the “Logos” is in the inner part of our soul, deep inside our heart, where no one excpet you and God could ever look.
I am catholic, but I could never accept that homosexuality was a sin, a thing opposite to God Will; I think that every manifestation of His Love on this poor planet earth is holy, and that sex is a holy thing too…
Existe um duelo entre o racional e o intuitivo. O racional nos pede para sermos cético em relação à espiritualidade, enquanto o intuitivo nos aconselha que realmente existe algo além da lógica do razão. Tenho certeza que a grande maioria dos céticos, ficarão felizes, se descobrirem que seus pontos de vistas estão errados.
Um ateu pode chamar um crente de ingênuo. Um crente pode chamar um ateu de prepotente. De uma coisa é certa, a fé tem poder. Se esse poder vem da auto sugestão, ou vem de uma força divina, é discutível. Pessoalmente, cada vez mais, fico com a segunda opção.
Adorei seu comentário.
grande abraço,
Mari.
Paulo, quantas saudades!!!! Já percorri alguns caminhos religiosos… não consigo aceitar verdadeiramente TODOS os dogmas das religiões cristãs, mas como é a grande maioria, pelo menos no ocidente, me vi caminhando para um de seus segmentos afim de suprir a necessidade que tinha de COMPARTILHAR os momentos de oração, de estar junto a outras pessoas fazendo uma Voz mais forte, coletiva e sentir Jesus dentro de mim.
Entretando, a Magia dos caminhos da natureza me deixam fascinada, nunca deixei de realizar meus rituais solitários, meus encantamentos, minhas invocações e apenas nesse momento me sinto “parte” da criação, igual a todas as criaturas e sinto o Poder dentro de mim… Enfim, espero que tenha explicado direito…
Beijão meu querido,
Com AMOR,
PATRICIA RUDECK
Khrisnamurty decía que “las religiones son postes que te marcan el camino”.
En el libro de “Señor Dios soy Ana” la niña decía “Nosotros tenemos muchos puntos de vista y Dios tiene muchos puntos desde donde ver”
Nosotros los hombres tenemos que ser capaces de transformar por lo tanto debemos de ir transformando la Religión en algo que se adecue a los pensamientos y las acciones que a nuestro entender han avanzado.
La Religión no quiere perder sus señas de identidad propia cree que si las cambia pierde el poder y de todas formas si no lo hace terminará perdiéndolo porque una gran mayoría ha avanzado en sus conceptos. En la evolución del ser humano solo se necesita alcanzar una cantidad de seres que piensen igual y entonces el salto será dado.
Un beso Paulo y Feliz Cumpleaños desde aqui también.
Happy Birthday Paulo Coelho.
I remembered one thing.
well, I will never think that I will go to a certain church because of help, or because of a material advantage.
Some do, I see people going to one or other rites because there they are offered money or goods. And I dont talk about people with no means, so the thing is serious in my opinion.
I love to see priests helping poor, but, not on the condition that after I change my belief.
Just some days before my heart grew. I felt so much joy when in tv they prestented a good priest, coming from a poor family, 12 brothers, who started to work for helping poor, old, homeless, or abandoned kids. His face showed that he was really good hearted, rarely one see so much kindness at first sight.
I tell this also because here we dont see often such , the church is not well organized in helping people.
I would love a church more close to real life.
Anyways
Much love to everybody
Alexandra
“I would love a church more close to real life.” Me too, Alexandra.
TWO CHURCHES:
Church #1: There is a church built high on a hill. When I first moved to this community, I went there to see what it was all about, because several people told me, “You should go to this church – check it out. Lot’s of good people there.” Lot’s of “important” people would be more accurate. Surely it is a good place to meet people, in the sense of “networking,” because everybody who is “somebody,” certainly everybody who is wealthy or in a position of power in this community, it seems, goes to that church. And, as a consequence, it is a very rapidly growing community, because, of course, people like to be associated with what is up-and-coming, what is growing in significance and power. So, I went there, and that is what I saw, nothing more. I felt nothing, emptiness. I don’t speak for the other people’s experiences in that church – just my own. In the three years that I have lived here, I have also watched it grow. At first it was a modest brick church-house. Then they had to build an even bigger building, adjacent to that. Finally, they had to purchase all the land round about, and because I know a little bit about the land business here, I also know that the authorities in the church were quite angry when the property owner next door, who was not a member, refused to sell her land at a substantial “discount.” In other words, because the land owner, a retired woman, wouldn’t simply donate her land to the church, the church officials were angry. So, finally, they bought the land, several acres, and they built an even bigger and better church house, one that they can be “proud” of and one that stands out in the landscape for miles around – the big church on the hill. The church that everyone knows the name of.
Church #2: Then, a few miles down the road is another church, housed in a little white-washed, wood-frame building, the parking lot of which is little more than a cow field. The preacher doesn’t wear a new suit every Sunday, as the preacher in the big church on the hill does. Often he just wears jeans and boots, like most of the men in his congregation, blue-collar workers of various trades, most of whom don’t even own a suit. If it isn’t Sunday, this preacher comes straight from work, where he drives a grader that grades the county’s many miles of dirt roads, one of the poorest counties in the state. In this church, unlike in the big church on the hill, no offering plate is passed around. A little basket sits up by the altar, and if anyone has an extra dollar or two they can toss it in, of their own free will, but they are not obligated to. No one asks for money, their is no petition for donations. When I look around the room, some of the ladies are wearing dresses, but not all, and even of those, some of the dresses are obviously hand-made, sewn at home. Otherwise, most of the congregation is dressed in jeans and t-shirts, many faded and worn, some with holes in them. But no one pays any attention to this, because this is not why they are there – they didn’t come to impress or be impressed. They came only to worship. Sometimes, especially on holidays, the church is so full that there is no seating space and people have to stand or sit in the aisles, but no mention has ever been made of building a newer or bigger or better building. And that money that does go into the little basket up by the altar, it doesn’t all go into the preacher’s pocket. He lives in a modest house and drives an old truck, like everyone else. Sometimes the money goes to pay electric bills or buy food and things of that sort, because most of the people in this church live from paycheck to paycheck and what they earn is not always enough. And some are retired, very old and/or ill, and have no means to make ends meet. When, by whatever hardship or calamity, one is left without certain basic needs, the church steps in to make up the difference. These are not “important” people, most do not hold any position of power in the community, but when I stand among them, I feel a great Power present in their midst.
For me, this has made all the difference between Church #1 and Church #2 – not only is the latter “closer to real life,” it feels to me closer to God. In comparison, to me, the former – though it is grander and more spectacular to behold from the outside – just looks like the Tower of Babel.
Sincerely,
Savita
One of the biggest understandings I had in my early adolescent life was that Faith, like Sex, is part of intimacy.
There is a part in us that no one can control.
…
Faith and Religion are two distinct things.
Religion should be there to help you in your spiritual path. The role of priets is first and foremost, to learn people PRAY.
All other roles are secondary and temporary, and cannot remplace or overshadow this first and most important task they have.
…
I really respect John Paul II for having been Pope till the end of his life, despite his sickness. It had a message. That the main task of the Pope is to be man in front of God, and this task he wanted to complete fully and completely, till the end.
It is not making beautiful speeches or big trips, etc etc; these things are important but secondary.
In TIME Magazine once I read about the current Pope: “A vicar of Doctrine becomes a diplomat”.
I like this sentence.
This can be his mission on Earth.
The Pope is a man, the personal fights of a Pope are there to inspire us all.
RELIGION is a personal attitude.It shouldnt be forceful by leaders .
Im MOSLEM & praying 7times a day but this is the way that I chosen by myself not to obey others actions.GOD will judge us with what we have in our heart not our believes & behaviors.Everyone must to search &whenever they face to problem just ask from someone who is professional in that case,I didnt mean that ask from priest or emam becouse these have kinds of sagma’s ideas which make us away from religion.
GOD create us with free will that everyone has his own opinion,everyone believe in birth & death.That is the point which all of us with different way of worshiping,believe in ONE POWER,,,,,,
If u really persistence on ur ideas & want to know more,whole natural
creatures will guide u in appropriate path,so there is no need to ask such stupid people such as priest,emam or rubbi ,,,,,,
Happy Birthday, dear brother.
A day of power in numerous ways.
Religions are to life as training wheels are to a bicycle.
They can assist in the beginning, but as soon as a certain level of development has been reached, they hinder.
Where dogma enters, truth exits.
If the feeling of betrayal arises, in rejecting aspects of a religious tradition with which one has a strong bond, I would suggest identifying what aspects of the tradition one truly feels alignment with, regard or reverence for, and which aspects are easily seen to be immature and limiting restrictions.
In the same way that a mature rider cannot zoom down the mountain pass if training wheels are attached to his bike, one who seeks to become increasingly self realized will soon chafe at the artificial and — erroneous — beliefs inherent in religious dogma. It is simple. To identify truth is not ‘airy fairy’ and to gain understanding so as to evolve is not creating a religion. No teacher around whom religions have sprung up ever sought to espouse a religious doctrine. All sought to liberate and assit others in aligning with their higher selves and to impart whatever understanding as to the nature of reality their audience might accept. I cannot think of one which did not become extremely distorted very quickly, but – we are a species in progress…
It has been a real privilege for me to participate in this forum and to share the ideas of so many.
After considering all the comments and discussion on Dogmas, Theological theories and arguments it is clear that Religion and Spirituality are intertwined and are ALIVE as we speak.
As many others have said , it’s all about the HERE and NOW. It’s about this moment in time and the relationship between Me – My God – My Neighbour.
It is in my hands, and it is for me to seize this moment!
……….
God be in my head, and in my understanding;
God be in mine eyes, and in my looking;
God be in my mouth, and in my speaking;
God be in my heart, and in my thinking;
God be at mine end, and at my departing.
Sarum Primer (1558)
I was thinking about people saying that we shouldn’t be forced to believe and I think this is correct. God gave us free will, which to me means he wanted us to come to Him and love him by choice. We have guidelines in Religion on how to come to Him and He lets us know the consequences (sometimes in very harsh tones) of what will happen if we decide not to follow these guidelines.
I think problems happen in religion when man tries to enforce it, thereby taking away what gave us, our free will.
God is mostly gentle and kind and patient. Religious leaders who follow suit tend to be more successful in changing a person’s heart.
As a strange coincidence today after writing the above, at mass today our Parish Priest was talking about this. He was saying that if the younger ones in your family don’t want to follow suit don’t despair. He explained how you can’t force someone to be faithful, you can’t force them to love. He gave the example of how Jesus allowed people to choose and some turned away, then he turned to his disciples and asked them what they wanted to do. He was giving them a choice, they had to decide for themselves if they believed him.
Yes God gives choice, and it is through Love that we return.
Lots of love
XXX
Dear Jay,
(This is a copy of my response to your post on page 6. I was concerned that you might not see it there.)
Costa Rica! – I have to ask: Did you visit or study at El DEI?! Did you meet Franz Hinkelammert?!! Oh, it would be a dream inconceivable! If I were to meet Hinkelammert or even to enter the doors of El Departamento Ecuménico de Investigaciones, I think I would fall on the floor prostrate. It would be, for me, as it is for some like meeting the Dali Lama or the Pope, or entering into the Holy of Holies. I would feel like I had to crawl on all fours just to be worthy of touching that man’s feet. And I’m not exaggerating in the least. El Papa of contemporary Liberation Theology.
And then the “Saints” you mention. I used to have one wall of my study devoted to the pictures of these Saints. One image which I remember very clearly, and which I was reminded of just this week in seeing the still-image of Paulo’s video clip, is of Gustavo Gutierrez with his hands flung up in the air, gesticulating wildly while giving a speech. (Of course, Gutierrez was in black, Paulo in white, and physically they bear no likeness; still something about that image on the still-frame sparked the recognition of some resemblance.) Gutierrez. Is it possible to be a Saint while still alive? I think it is. And then, of course, Rutilio Grande, Oscar Romero, Alfonso Navarro, Ernesto Barrera, Octavio Ortiz…. The list goes on and on and on, and encompasses the names of those who served the poor in many countries. Does one need to be canonized to be regarded as a Saint? I think not.
Even if you did have the good fortune to visit DEI, it seems all too appropriate that you ended up living in a “mud-brick house, witness(ing)….” I cannot tell you, Jay, how much your post inspires me, how it fills my heart with unutterable joy. Please say more of your experiences. Say anything. I am so eager to hear more.
With Love,
Savita
S-
I have been waiting for your reply. No, I’m afraid I don’t know about DEI, but I believe you and the reverence you have for these men. I was studying at Friend’s World College in San Jose. Growing up in an extremely wealthy family, the inspiration I received from the LTs broke down my barriers to the good people with so little. I can’t tell you how much I cried, but it was from love, from a bursting heart, perhaps from Jesus. This is why I encourage you to share your food with a hungry world.
Later in the semester, our class was to take a trip around Central America, but in the days beforehand, me and a ton of people in our town(Heredia) got sick from something in the water. The night before leaving, I told my host family I didn’t think I could go, and they got a look of horror on their faces, obviously they were looking forward to my absence, and I decided to go. The next two days were horrible, I was feverish and delirious driving the bumpy roads to Managua and then San Salvador. I begged whatever medicine the ladies at our hotel could give me (some penicillin I think), and then we ventured out to witness the first elections since the end of the war. Later our prof took us to the university where the Jesuits were killed, and I’ll never forget standing in the courtyard praying for their souls and the souls of the gardener’s wife and daughter in front of the roses while the gardener himself there working. The next day, at breakfast, while going over our itinerary, our prof mentioned he was taking me to the cooperative agency to inquire about my independent study. I was surprised, but went along while the rest of the class did something else. He introduced me to a lady and had me explain in my poor Spanish what I hoped to do, which was find out what was left of the base communities I had read about. She told me to go get my stuff and come back, so we returned to the hotel, and I got my bag and instructions on how to get back to Costa Rica when I was done. I said goodbye to my girlfriend and classmates, and he left me there at the agency. A guy later took me on a bus-ride into the country, and we stayed at their offices in Usulutan for a couple of days waiting for some campesinos to come in for a meeting. When they were done, I got up and gave my explanation for being there, and waited as they filed out. A little man with only his thumb, middle, and ring finger approached me, and beckoned me to follow him. We went to the market where I bought a hammock, and then took the bus out of town to his village, Tierra Blanca. His house was total mayhem. Pigs and chickens, a couple oxen, an extended family of over twenty, and me. I was flabbergasted, but strung my hammock in the front room and went off with Santos in his ox-cart to his fields the next day at the crack of dawn. We took a bit of cured meat, a few of their plate-like tortillas, a couple avocados, and some salt for lunch, and went about harvesting some of the corn a few miles from town. It was hot, I was a little weak, and the dried plants were really scratchy. When we got back, his wife Rosa scolded him for trying to kill me, as my neck and forearms were heavily abraded with raw scratches. I didn’t know because my Spanish was so bad, but she told him not to take me again. I woke up the next day ready to go, but he didn’t come for me and left without me. Rosa made me some delicious fried plantain bananas, and I settled into the life there. Strangely I wasn’t aware of why I didn’t go back out to help Santos, actually I had a wealth of unanswered questions in my head, and with time on my hands, I tried to talk to the little girls, but they all made fun of my poor language skills. I can remember being overcome, surrounded by people but so alone, I thought of my mom and girlfrined and started to cry. I couldn’t stop, and I cried and cried for what seemed like days, but really for a few hours I think. I had no idea how Santos lost his forearm and fingers, but guessed at his tragedy as I guessed at the tragedy of so many in El Salvador. Savita, something broke in me, and when my emotions started, it was like a dam bursting. I have to stop now, but will return to my story later.
much love,
Jay
About religion
We belong to the race called “homo sapiens”- we are thinking beings.
We need explanations for everything: For natural events, sense of life, where are we coming from, where are we going to, what was in the beginning; is there an end – and so on.
We know that we are mortal but we won’t accept it and we fear it – so we are looking to find something to overcome death or at least to overcome our fears.
I think that is why almost every human community has created religions or at least beliefs.
It seems that we are not able to live without a belief – even if the belief is not to believe in “God”. Most of us try to come closer to the answers of all our questions by religion or at least by spirituality- they are closer to emotions while philosophy and sciences touch the more intellectual level.
Our beliefs are primarily the result of our socialization and secondary they become the result of experiences.
For me as a protestant there is a great difference between religion and religious institution.
Perhaps we agree with the principles of a religion but we are disappointed by the representatives of these faiths. The representatives are always human, never divinely, so they can be wrong with their ideas, even if they try to make us believe that they know “God’s Will”. I always suspect humans who tell me about “God’s Will”. It’s always a human interpretation. If you see history of religions (any religion, by the way!) you see how often they were wrong or failed!
This might be the reason why people switch their confession or leave it.
We are all seeking the meaning of our lives. But is there only one truth? I don’t think so.
Regarding different beliefs, I do not evaluate but tolerate. I believe that real faith as real love can never be the result of force and persuasion by others. Love and faith have to be voluntary and they come to us in many different ways. We should be open for both of it; otherwise they will hide or escape from us.
In both cases it’s a gift when we find them.
“CUANDO UN TODO SE CONVIERTE EN TU FE”…religión, sexualidad, política, sociedad, felicidad, solo o acompañado, éxitos o fracasos, buenos o malos, guerreros o no guerreros, verdad o mentira, ¿para que nos preguntamos todo esto si al final nos vamos a terminar escondiendo en los mínimos datos que nos brinda la historia de este mundo? Para serles sincera a mí la historia de todo lo que enumere no me sirvió de nada, es mas, soy la persona mas fracasada del mundo. Jamás eh tomado el camino correcto, siempre hice las cosas mal, todos los errores que se puedan imaginar los tengo yo, y nunca me dio vergüenza ser tan incompleta es mas! Me esmero por serlo, se perfectamente lo que es pasear por el infierno, no quiero ser ni buena ni mala soy lo que soy, claro! Que al cielo lo quiero conocer…pero que por ahora me espere! Tengo 39 años y no he escrito un libro, no plante un árbol, y menos que menos tuve un hijo, no significa que no halla querido pero ser tan desprolija no me lo permitió, ¿y por que hago esto? Por que cuanto más caminos equivocados recorra más lejos de la hipocresía voy a estar, jamás tuve talento para vivir, pero si una enorme fuerza de voluntad, y estoy contenta conmigo misma, no busco culpables, muchos dirán que inmadura!… ¿pero se preguntaron que viene después déla madures?, la sabiduría les puedo asegurar que no. El camino hacia la verdad tampoco. Cuanto más me equivoco mas aprendo en lo que me convierto después de cada error, yo soy mi propia fe,
He visto la luz… de nuevo. Cuando ésta acelerada evolución (revolución) del género humano llegue a su culmen veremos cómo todas las religiones pierden su identidad fundiéndose en una sola espiritualidad, si aún existirá esa palabra y llegaremos al orígen simultáneo de dos grandes fenómenos: el orígen de una nueva especie surgida a partir de los humanos, ésta nueva especie será tan lista que se irán al espacio y comenzarán un nuevo camino: la espiritualidad extraterrestre, que será la impersonalidad, lograda de la sintetización de las religiones, pues ya no serán personas sino extraterrestres. A ese nivel el mundo será muy poco y así se descubrirá la última frontera. Yo no sé, pero la vieja escuela me parece mucho más sexy… y soy un poco nostálgica y fashionista… no me gustan las cursilerías.
Religion elaborates or directs one person to a theory or a system that describes what is “good” and inevitably what is “wrong”.
Mythology and theology are the two older sources of ethic. Moral pertains to the rules of what should be done or not done and concerns our personal life. Ethic is more related to principal theories. Moral are the rules that structure our life and ethic is the system that created those rules.
Ethic is theory and morale is action.
For me, I try to learn to complement both in my life. I stop myself today because now I need to know the choices that are before me, see the “for it” or “against it” for me and find a moral thinking that justifies the action that I am preparing myself to make. If an interior voice tells me not to do it, then I find it better to listen to it for the moment. I always say “for the moment”, being always opened to new elements and also in a humility and honesty aspects that I do not hold the truth, that even if I “believe” I do “good” I may be doing “bad”. I act and observe, experiment and conclude. Because I know that I can rationalize, form and deform an idea until it fits in the mold. But the word justification has a seed commune to justice and just. So, a justification is based on a serious reflexion for me that offer me a basis more solid. My religion consists to being confident of my system of ethic to obtain moral advices, that I acquire from reading, relations, principles edicted in various scriptures, etc … dogmas.
A religion enounces principles. All religions attribute to their moral principles a divine source. The attribution of those rules to a God permits to obtain two things at once: a precise moral to guide actions and an absolute ethic system to which to apply that moral. A good action is to obey to God’s rules. The rules are given by God and God is good. But I am careful today … religion and politics, religion and financial power have always been linked together and motives, objectives of the “humans in power, priests, etc …” Religion is a structure that has many adepts, masses, and to stay there, to satisfy material needs, and for men in politics, governments, power, they well need one another, and so rules can be there to satisfy their needs, control, etc …
The scriptures of all major religions have words, philosophies, dogmas that are profoundly installed in moral from which each person can retrieve a learning. But to take my decisions and to adapt them to my questions, I now rely and interest myself at the great moral principles of various religious, other souls that have walked their path, etc, and find to put light to my vision of the world. The thinking and rationalization that initiate my acts are the keys to fight and resolve what is on my path. No more will I act upon a unique system that is being interpretated or manipulated by humans to satisfy their unique objectives. Religion, which is a system of principles, an ethic, is just one way that permits me to make an update to my moral rules and principles that are on my path. Science and religion contain both parcels of moral truth. There is also other sources that contain the same.
So, that is what I had to say, after having been from the catholic religion because born in that culture, after having stop believing, after having come back to an evangelist religion, after having left that system to make now my own religion.
With affection, Jojo
“How far can we go, when we realize that what the priest or the rabbi, or the imam says goes against our beliefs?”
I found it fascinating – and insightful – to contemplate this question. And the answer that struck me was as surprising as it was unexpected: ‘If we can find a higher understanding of a principle, we are entitled to disregard a lower understanding’.
For instance the great C13 Sufi Muhyiddin Ibn al-’Arabi wrote an interpretation of the story of Noah in the Qur’an which appears to turn the text on its head – suggesting a meaning which seems to be the very opposite of what is intended (understanding the ‘wrongdoers’ as the saints and mystics). Yet his interpretation makes a kind of deeper sense – it is possible to read it and get a glimpse of the higher meaning he is pointing to.
All spiritual truths have these deeper dimensions. And they can lead us from a cruder to a more compassionate understanding. As Jesus does when he pronounces on the adulterous woman: ‘Let he who is without sin cast the first stone…’ He doesn’t deny the Torah’s penalty of stoning, but – by shifting his audience’s understanding to a higher level – he avoids the need to implement it.
Dear James,
I agree with you completely. There are different levels of comprehending a teaching, understanding a parable or interpreting a scripture. On the surface is the explicit meaning, then a little deeper is the metaphorical meaning, but even deeper than that is a sort of immediate intuitive comprehension which transcends the dogmatic concerns of the prior two levels. This final level is a direct transmission from the Divine Spirit, and, as such it cannot be “taught” in the traditional sense. Nor can it be arrived at by means of rational thought.
Zen koans, for example, rely solely on this level of understanding and thus cannot be “explained” or apprehended by any other method than direct and immediate intuitive comprehension.
Even when we look at Christianity, however, even in the Bible itself, there are hints which acknowledge the possibility of apprehending the message in this manner, at a level which transcends dogma.
(Matthew 13:10-17, for example:) Jesus has just finished relaying a parable to an audience – offering a teaching which relies upon the explicit and metaphorical levels of understanding – and his “disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?”
And Jesus answers, “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given….
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand….
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed…. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”
Those who see and yet do not see, who hear and yet do not hear, are those who are hearing and apprehending the message solely on the explicit and metaphorical levels. They follow dogma because this is what they extract from the teachings and the scriptures. But – and this is my own personal belief – the Divine can and does use those same scriptures, as well as the words of spiritual teachers, to send direct messages to an aspirant who “has the ears to hear” such messages. And those messages have nothing to do with dogmatic concerns, in fact, they are wholly transcendent of dogma.
How can I explain this? Let us say that a person is grappling with some issue in their own mind, an issue which has immediate resonance in their life at the present moment. And let us say that that person sits down with the Bible, or the Koran, or whatever scripture in a hand, and opens that book at random, then points with closed eyes at a particular phrase (not even necessarily a whole sentence – just a phrase or single word). It is possible, if that person is in the right frame of mind to start with, that this singular phrase or word will offer a concise and complete answer to the question or issue. AND that answer may well run contrary to the very dogma contained in that passage.
This sounds “crazy” I know, but this method of apprehension does exist and it is a potential which we all have. Nor is it confined to scripture; the same thing can occur when one is listening to the teachings of a preacher, a rabbi, or whatever. Something clicks, and in a line, a phrase, a word, there is the immediate apprehension of a truth which transcends all dogma and which is directly and immediately applicable to the real-life situation which the aspirant faces in the present moment.
I realize that this is probably not exactly what you were getting at, James, but, yes, I do agree that there are other levels (or perhaps “methods” is a better word) of apprehending a teaching, aside from the purely dogmatic interpretation. All that is required for this method of which I speak is for one to develop and trust in one’s intuition. The intuition always has the capacity to transcend rational thought, which is what dogma is based upon. Even when the dogma being taught isn’t necessarily “logical,” the acceptance of it follows a pattern of rational thought: The scripture is of God, and in the scripture it says “don’t eat pork,” therefore, in order to please God, one must not eat pork. The intuitive level, however, has nothing to do with these rational concerns – each message is unique and directed toward the individual and that individual’s unique path. Everything becomes relative.
Jesus “worked” on the Sabbath, he ate with those who were deemed “unclean,” he even went against the purely dogmatic interpretation of his own teachings – he allowed an expensive bottle of oil to be “wasted” on his own body, when he had declared that his disciples should sell all their valuables and distribute the profits among the poor. He was working on a purely intuitive level, which, in fact, rendered even the dogma of his own teachings as relative. By the use of intuition, he apprehended that which was beyond rational comprehension and – as you suggest, James – he thereby “shifted his understanding to a higher level, avoiding the need to implement dogma.” I think that Jesus, like any true master, was very much present in the living moment, in contact with the Divine IN THE LIVING MOMENT, and, as such, he had very little use for dogma.
Sincerely,
Savita
Well thinking about that issue took me to the past years, looking at the history of the church and the different Religions, the contraindications that we do as humans and what the religion is saying, like homosexuality and finding that a priest is having sex with a 13 years old girl makes me think, i go to church listen to him teaching and believe his words of wisdom and the next day he is on the news accused of sexual abuse, it is the religion who puts the regulation and the beliefs in our spiritual growth, this is why i have to agree that it is wise to think about the things that we do and ask ourselves why do we do it, is it just that we are used to it or that is what everyone is doing.
by looking deeply in our souls we find the answers to these questions, all what we need to do is to stop and think, and this is the way that we decide where to go and what to do.
Paulo,
what I forgot:
when you say:
“I’m talking about the importance of being capable of distinguish between things that are really important to us and things that somehow maybe manipulated by our religion.”
I wonder whether it is not the religion that manipulates. it is the “community”, or “political” interpretations that manipulate, including also translations.
the cores of all the religions appear to be so similar, wisdom just gets expressed in different words, stories, and pictures.
there is a beautiful mountain.
it has different zones of vegetation.
on the top, there are no trees, and finally there is snow.
we all want to go to the top of this mountain.
there are many trails on the mountain.
and we can choose the trail that fits us well.
they all go to the top.
each trail is a religion. it provides us with books, rituals – let’s name them: tools – to get up to the top of the mountain, i.e., to work spirituality in our lives and learn from it.
and then there is “the church”, or let’s say “the earth-community”, that helps us to get acquainted with the tools, and also gives a unique opportunity to practice :o)
definitely, there is the influence of the “community” and culture in the tools. however, learning to live with my spirituality, e.g, connection to god, helps me to distinguish between the spiritual message and the influence of politics. if the non-spiritual message is inhumain according to my standards, I do not except those.
my trail up the mountain started with christianity. however, I never felt comfortable. already as a child, I found it painful and cruel to have at the wall a man hanging at the cross. so, at a very young age, I did not follow the spiritual guidance of christianity. but became an existentialist favoring sartre & camus and developed my own moral, principles and priorities in this environment.
very late, I found a religion, whose teachings and rituals mean a lot to me; and it has a moral & principles that follow mine. I think I am lucky: I now get faster up the mountain.
I had read your Paulo Coelho’s book ‘The witch of Portobello’, which had a character who was a historian. He said now that people are finding ways to the spiritual path other than which is mentioned in their religion or the holy scriptures, the religion and its institutes might rebel. This is true, for people all around the world now understand that we as human beings are all ‘one’. We have developed religions many centuries ago respective to the civilization, culture or the language of the particular religion. Since so many years people have been trying to find the spiritual path based on what their religion said. But since we are ‘one’ how is it possible that we all have different ways to walk on that spiritual path. People somehow understand that this spiritual path cannot be gained by any of the religious customs and cultural codes. The spiritual path’s door opens from the ‘Soul’ or ‘The Master’ that is present in EVERY human being. You might want to read Osho’s ‘Witness : the only meditation’ to know how your soul is your only GOD and to be AWARE OF WHAT THE SOUL IS SAYING AND WHAT IS HAPPENING AROUND YOU IS THE ONLY RELIGION OF A HUMAN BEING.
P.S : I’m just 14. These are truly my opinions and are not meant to hurt anyone’s ideas. I have given my opinions here because I saw this Paulo’ blog and I simply LOVE his books!
Hi ! Rucha !!
i m impressed, only 14 and u are alreday where u r, not bad at all.
If u have read osho or intend to do so sometime, i may wish to forwarn you. Osho was very contradictory, as indeed truth is, but at many places, he and his ‘inner circle’ have played many a tricks. so tread with caution. e.g. Even while implying that real master is within, osho had initiated more than 2 million people as his sanyasins, where he was the master. so !!??
love
aditya
Namaste Rucha,
It’s wonderful that you mention Osho. He made a profound impact on me philosophically. I see the soul, not as God though, but as a go between the self and the Self… if you understand my differentiation. The self being personal and the Self being all inclusive… the collective consciousness. I like what he wrote about religion. I have several collections of his interpretations and research of the various religions. They are some of my favorite works.
I see religions as uniting slowly based upon their likenesses. The internet is a wonderful tool for this. The best way to break down the walls which separate us is through knowledge. Gandhi, who is also a great influence on me, called himself a Hindu, a Muslim, and a Christian. (I think he threw in a few other religious traditions, but I don’t recall them off the top of my head. :-) ) In many ways, I see this unification as religion maturing away from the childish squabbles of who worships better than whom and who is more favorable in the eyes of the Divine, whichever name one uses.
I think it’s wonderful that you have such insight at your age. I’m 52 and I’m still trying to understand these concepts which you put forth so adeptly. You are blessed.
Love to you
Eu acho que todos podem falar o que quiser sobre “religião”, que jamais será seguido ao pé da letra, porque cada um tem uma crença particular de “Alma”,de “Eu”.
A religião é aquilo que a gente aceita, através de estudos ou não.
Eu acredito que tudo depende da FÉ de inúmeros momentos.
Tudo pode ser intenso quando existe sincronia das Almas através de gestos/movimentos para evolução do Um, que vive para nos direcionar para essa Luz. Tudo depende da harmonia, da crença, da Fé de todos nós, ao Amor incondicional que nos leve a essa sintonia.
Mas está por aí … na crença de vida, de gestos, de Fé, de Amor de cada Um.
Beijos,
Mari.
For a man like you, who dare to question, I think I should dare to write this to you.
I’m a Buddhism. If I were you, I won’t have this ‘problem’ or question. Simply because I’m a Buddhism.
Now delete from your mind, that I’m a Buddhism. Straight to the Dharma (The Buddha’s teaching). I don’t need to explain, you can read yourself here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta
After you read that, you can also delete from your mind that what you just read is part of Dharma, part of Buddhism. (Because sometimes people are too attach to from whom the idea is, not straight to the idea itself)
regards
Namaste Irwan,
On my computer “desktop” display, I have a passage attributed to Buddha: “Believe nothing no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” It seems to be the same concept.
Thank you for posting this.
Love to you
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